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Thread: Is Phil Fish right to demand a cut?

  1. #1
    [Level 2: Human] chizwoz's Avatar
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    Is Phil Fish right to demand a cut?

    This seems to have been a pretty big issue in the last few months. I'm wondering what the majority view is around here.

    For those who are unaware of the issue. There's been a lot of controversy recently about whether streamers, lets players, reviewers etc on youtube should be able to claim the advertising revenue from videos featuring source material from games (i.e nearly every video)

    Obviously Nintendo were stopping videos that contained their material (or was it just their music?). Hoards of indie developers then came forward to say they were fully supportive of the youtubers. But now that white knight of humanity, Phil Fish is saying that he should be getting the cash for any Fez-related videos.

    As much as I loved Fez, Phil Fish just strikes me (maybe he's different in real life) as an unpleasant human being. Games like Fez (and Minecraft, and nearly every indie game) only became successful because of their huge grassroots support. Would he have had the same attitude in the month that Fez had just came out? Of course not, he'd take any and all forms of exposure he could find. It's nothing cynical opportunism on his part.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2
    [Level 9: Chuck Norris]
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    We've already had a thread about this in the Nintendo thread. We already talked about Fish in the Arcade.

    Basically, copyright holders do have a right to demand a cut, and YouTube already has systems in place to get it if they want. Fish is just whining on Twitter instead of actually doing something about it for the sake of attention because he heard someone makes more money than him.

    Fuck that guy. He likely wouldn't even have sold half the copies if it wasn't for people on YouTube plugging the shit out of it because indie games really rely on that sort of exposure. So in an indirect sense, he's already got more out of it than he deserves to have ever gotten.

    Also, you are wrong about Nintendo stopping people uploading their material. They are taking a cut. Directly doing the thing Fish could have done instead of whining about it. A lot of people are treating that as if the material is being stopped because people online think in extremes.

  3. #3
    [Level 10: Lobster Milkshake]
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    I dont think Indie games should demand a cut from the internet / lets players simply because it was those people who carried Fish's ass to relevance in the first place. He already got a cut, it's called customers buying the damn game.

    If Fish wants more money from his works, he should go and make another fucking game.

    If he legitimately thinks Youtubers/Lets Players are costing him sales because they just watch the game instead of purchasing it, then I hate to break it to him but I highly doubt those people were going to buy his game in the first place.

  4. #4
    [Level 10: Lobster Milkshake]
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    Phil Fish is a disgusting cunt, but I kind of agree with him to an extent. It's kinda hard to argue against copyright owners; at the end of the day, it is their content--the reactions of the LPers are their own, but the images they're showing are theirs. In an ideal world a compromise would be made. Like the sharing of profits only on videos with so many views, etc..

    Spoiler!

  5. #5
    Lolipuss Firion's Avatar
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    Doesn't really matter if he's right or wrong, as Above said he's a whiny dickhole about it, as per the norm for him.

    But anyway legally he's in the right and potentially morally but as Seph said the only reason most indie games get popular is because of LPs and the such. So it's pretty disrespectful to shit on the people who put food on your table and gave you any sort of relevance. Not to mention people watch more for the commentators than anything, otherwise everyone who uploaded a LP of minecraft would get millions of views and there wouldn't be a thousand failures for every success story

  6. #6
    [Level 8: Skynet]
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    You know why people still release videogames and other software? It's because all the advantages of electronic media far outweigh the disadvantages.

    If you don't like your work being subjected to the ubiquity of social media, maybe you should make boardgames instead. I really hate how people are more than happy to exploit the internet when it works to their advantage, and then cry about all the things people do with their internet freedom when it's a disadvantage. Phil Fish and anybody else who monetizes the internet can go fuck themselves.

    And I don't even like Let's Play videos.

  7. #7
    [Level 9: Chuck Norris]
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    As if board games are safe from this kind of thing. Most of them are easy enough to replicate with online instructions on social media circles designed for that too. Weirdly enough, that's not even questionable to any extent and legal entirely, which is why most board games aren't even remotely profitable anymore, barring a few crazy huge successes.

  8. #8
    [Level 8: Skynet]
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    Sure, but it's not the same. I've actually done that to boardgames. If anything, I helped promote them.

    I guess my viewpoint is that the people on the internet should be free to do whatever they want. All these assholes want to regulate it, so it can be exploited for monetization. Fuck that, freedom is what the internet is all about. Go get a real job if you want to get rich.

  9. #9
    [Level 9: Chuck Norris]
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    What, like Pewdiepie?

  10. #10
    [Level 10: Lobster Milkshake]
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    Man, I'm surprised Pewdiepie can afford to eat. What a bum.

  11. #11
    [Level 10: Lobster Milkshake]
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    Another thing to think about is that if more and more devs/pubs want "their piece of the pie" eventually it's going to cause a lot of people to back out of doing Lets Plays in general, causing the potential "returns" these devs/pubs want to dwindle down to nothing. Thus putting them back at square one while at the same time ruining the fun for everyone else, not to mention killing off potential free publicity for smaller devs (like Fish) who can't afford their own marketing.

  12. #12
    [Level 9: Chuck Norris]
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    LPing was already a huge thing before monetization came around though. Most of the entire SA archive of LPs (which are pretty much all of the ones that are actually entertaining) were uploaded before you could monetize gameplay videos on YouTube. The only people who will quit over it are only there for the money. There'd still be a large base if monetization was turned off entirely.

  13. #13
    [Level 8: Skynet]
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    Quote Originally Posted by AboveUp View Post
    What, like Pewdiepie?
    While I say "good for him" for making mint off of not really doing anything, I don't think that anyone should expect or demand to be able to make a living off of the internet. If you can do it, fine, if you can't well... tough cookies.

  14. #14
    [Level 10: Lobster Milkshake]
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    Quote Originally Posted by AboveUp View Post
    LPing was already a huge thing before monetization came around though. Most of the entire SA archive of LPs (which are pretty much all of the ones that are actually entertaining) were uploaded before you could monetize gameplay videos on YouTube. The only people who will quit over it are only there for the money. There'd still be a large base if monetization was turned off entirely.
    yeah, i should have clarified and said "monitized LPs would probably start dying off"

  15. #15
    Lolipuss Firion's Avatar
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    I gotta dig into those old SA LPs sometime, I've heard lots of good things.

  16. #16
    Personally I don't think LPers do owe a game's creators anything, if they've bought the game they should have a right to do whatever they want with it. LPs aren't popular based solely on the game content, it's part game content, part commentary. It's free advertising for the product at the end of the day, so they should be grateful. That said, I have no problem with developers taking a cut if content creators are happy for them to, it just shouldn't be forced.

    Oddly enough I think I probably would feel different if for example people sold 'Let's Play' DVDs for games or something along those lines (a la Rifftrax), but the fact that LPs are hosted on youtube and monetisation (usually) comes after that makes me feel as though they shouldn't have to necessarily share any profit they make.

  17. #17
    [Level 9: Chuck Norris]
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firion View Post
    I gotta dig into those old SA LPs sometime, I've heard lots of good things.
    Sonic The Hedgehog 2006
    Godhand
    Paper Mario

    Those are my favorites. Plus that famous text one about Animal Crossing: The Terrible Secret of Animal Crossing. What that dude did with the base gameplay elements of Animal Crossing (no lame modding like Ben's Drowned) is ingenious.

  18. #18
    Lolipuss Firion's Avatar
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    Oh I love me some paper mario. And I liked GGs playthrough of Sonic 06 that they never finished quite a bit. I'll do those ones when I eventually check it out.

  19. #19
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    Don't know if he's right, but he's undeniably IN the right. It amazes me the sheer entitlement of people who believe they're entitled to make money off someone else's game. The whole "free advertising" thing is irrelevant and more than a little hypocritical, nobody has the right to unilaterally decide to compensate a game creator solely with "advertising". Some developers are okay with people making money on YouTube off their games, some even encourage it, others don't like it. If a developer doesn't want a YouTuber making Let's Plays with his/her games, said Youtuber can scream bloody murder, pretend to be concerned the developer is only "hurting itself" or do whatever, but ultimately it's the IP's owner who decides how and by who the IP is used for commercial purposes.

    In short, there's a legitimate debate to be had about the wisdom of discouraging Youtubers from working with your games, but anyone who argues he/she has an absolute right to make money off someone else's copyright is an entitled hypocrite.

  20. #20
    Lolipuss Firion's Avatar
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    And saying what someone can and can't do with a product beyond something blatantly illegal after you've sold it to them isn't equally entitled?

    As I've said I think copyright laws are very outdated and overly favor the copyright holders.

    Also this is the same as the Nintendo thread, it really should be merged mods.

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