LGBT Issues and Vidja Games

[Sir Legendhead]

Religious characters are some of my favorites. I especially loved The Burned Man in New Vegas.

I respect religion. I just don't buy into the metaphysics.

New Vegas is brilliant in how it deals with religion. I like how the guy who gives you Scripture as a literal inventory item (Joshua) just isn't happy no matter what you do. That amused me to no end. And they don't try to dance around the faith thing either. Dude literally talks about Jesus, who the Courier has never heard of -- because the Christians were all raptured away.

Just kidding about the last bit! They probably never made it out of the vaults, if they got in one in the first place. Which makes sense to me. Turn the other cheek doesn't work so well when the other team has nukes and/or genetic mutations.

However your guy's display on the status screen gets a beard and robe if you have especially high karma. That's neat.

[Byronic Man]

Off the top of my head? No. But why must it be limited to protagonists? Why can't they be antagonists? Only straight people can be antagonists or something? And why can't they be supporting characters either?

The crux of that statement is to combat the notion that somehow a 1-3% minority is entitled to an abundance of representative fictional characters by default. If every 1-3% minority is entitled to fictional representation, then we're going to have quite a large credit roll on our hands.

Sure it can be antagonists, NPCs, anything. The fact that LGBT characters don't meet your request for proportionate representation for any of these conditions should be enough to show you what's what.

They're fictional stories. Like I said before: I don't get that attached to fiction, so I can't say that it does.

So you don't get mad when it's straight people everywhere because it's only stories but you do get mad when it's gay folks anywhere because it's politics.

[Revuhlooshun]

Sure it can be antagonists, NPCs, anything. The fact that LGBT characters don't meet your request for proportionate representation for any of these conditions should be enough to show you what's what.

I never said that they should have proportionate representation. I asked why they should have disproportionate representation, or why there should be an abundance of representation for a 1-3% minority (nor did I ever say that they were proportionally or disproportionately represented--we don't have the statistics to make such a judgement, given that rattling off characters from the top of our heads isn't very scientific). As I've said before, I don't care what their representation is, though here is a question worth asking: Why are gay people entitled to any representation whatsoever when they're a freckle on the population? Keep in mind that me asking that question does not mean that I think that they should have no representation at all (as I've clearly stated the opposite only a page ago). Furthermore, why should a writer be forced to include a gay character if that's not what they had envisioned for their story?

You guys approach this issue as if you're entitled to these characters, that it's somehow wrong if they're not included in a story. You are entitled to nothing. You want gay characters in fiction? Write them then. You guys have hands and a keyboard. Don't depend on other people to make them for you. If this is something you want to see, then make it happen. Take an active approach to fixing this problem by contributing gay characters.

This logic applies to all people, not just homosexuals. White people ain't entitled to shit, black people ain't entitled to shit, women ain't entitled to shit, and so on and so forth. You wanna see a story with so-and-so character with so-and-so beliefs? Write them then. Make it happen.

So you don't get mad when it's straight people everywhere because it's only stories but you do get mad when it's gay folks anywhere because it's politics.

Who said anything about being mad? Do you really think that the guy who spends an hour a day making political points in the politics thread is bothered by people making political points? There's a recurring pattern here of people on the other side of this discussion putting words into people's mouths and rearranging sentences.

[ZombiePlatypus]

I'm going to go back in time to the tiff over the term "tranny" at the start of the thread. As a dude that's never personally known a trans person I had no idea the word was considered offensive until about two years ago. It was actually at PAX East then that a Dtoider clued some of us in. Well, clued me in, I dunno if the others in the group knew this before or not. She also let us know that "eskimo" is offensive apparently. Again, how was I supposed to know? I never met any Inuits. Of course the term "midget" is offensive too, how many of us use that one without batting an eye?


Anyway, to the point of the thread, I'm all for the natural inclusion of people from all different walks of life. It's important to show them as people like everybody else. It may seem silly, but entertainment is actually very powerful in opening people's minds (or "corrupting our kids" as some would put it ) My own personal experience has nothing to do with video games, but it's all in that entertainment medium so I'll share. I'm heterosexual and never knew anybody who was openly anything but heterosexual until halfway through high school (when I moved from Virginia to Minnesota, incidentally). Dumb as it sounds, I truly believe watching and idolizing the Kids in the Hall after school back in VA, and genuinely liking the openly gay character of Northstar back when I was big on comic books really helped me not hold the close minded views of my parents and some of my friends and peers. Again, sorry if that sounds dumb or childish, but it's sincere. Since then I've met and become friends with a number of people with orientations different from mine. Hell, one of my cousins has "grown up" and "come out".

So from my "outside looking in" viewpoint, having realistic portrayals of LGBT people in video games could be some other kid's KitH or Northstar. It shouldn't be a gimmick or a quota thing, which this ToR planet seems to be. I agree with the folks who've said that BioWare has handled the issue better in the past.

[Shinobi13]

Yes, they are video games, a medium which (for the most part) strives to be taken seriously as a way to convey a narrative. That means it's pretty important how they deal with, ya know, actual things? It's easy to say, "I wouldn't care if they bashed straight cisgendered people," because they're not the ones being marginalized on a daily basis.

Film, novels, comics, paintings, music, whatever, it doesn't matter. Unless it's someone in your face threatening you because of your sexuality, then it doesn't matter. If you feel offended by something a company does (which is why I imagine you brought this up in the first place), that's not their fault, it's yours for choosing to be offended.
Now while you may think "I didn't choose to be offended", you did subconsciously.
Point is, it's a video game, it's something that may reflect aspects of real world problems, but there's a key difference; It's not the real world, so try not to take it as such, I guess.

Just editing this little piece in as I think it's relevant.

I remember being a little Shinobi playing my NES, and sinking hours and hours into Metroid. When I finally beat the game, and saw that the dude I was playing wasn't a dude at all, it was a chick...It made no god damn difference. Awesome game is awesome; not for the character, but for the atmosphere and gameplay.

Also, why don't we have black bills? As in money. Here in Canada we have blue, purple, green, redish, and brown, but no black bills to be seen. Now while I know it would only cater to the 0.71% of the target consumer, but still. There should be at least SOME black bills in circulation for the people that prefer it.

[Sir Legendhead]

Now while you may think "I didn't choose to be offended", you did subconsciously.

Agreed.

[Analoge]

So much reverse oppression in this thread. It's not often I'm tempted to tell someone to check their privilege and not be joking about it.

To make a personal example of it, I'm much more interested in talking to you about what random act of kindness you did, what you did at PAX, or any of those podcast badges than the symbol tacked to the bottom of your avatar. I don't care about what you are, but I don't mind learning who you are.

Don't bother, if that's your attitude. I'm not just an entity floating in the ether. I have an identity. Just because you don't want to acknowledge it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Sir Legendhead]

So much reverse oppression in this thread. It's not often I'm tempted to tell someone to check their privilege and not be joking about it.

Don't bother, if that's your attitude. I'm not just an entity floating in the ether. I have an identity. Just because you don't want to acknowledge it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

You probably should tell them, because now everyone else is going to wonder if you're talking about them.

Also, this concept of reverse oppression is...I'm somewhat familiar with said concept yet that's simply not how words work. The reverse of oppression is liberation and I doubt you'd have a problem with that. Oppression is oppression regardless of who the victims are, yes? Hate to be so technical about things but y'know. I hate misunderstandings even more.

[Revuhlooshun]

So much reverse oppression in this thread. It's not often I'm tempted to tell someone to check their privilege and not be joking about it.

Because it's easier to dismiss people than to argue the merits of their positions. That shit takes so much effort.

Also, the reverse of oppression is non-oppression. So yes, you're right--there's no oppression going on here. These are simply opinions on an internet forum.

[Sir Legendhead]

Rev, I don't get the non-oppression thing. It seems forced and it's not that funny.



You see what you did? You made Paul Ryan a confused bear. I think you should explain yourself to Paul Ryan immediately.

[Revuhlooshun]

[Sir Legendhead]

10/10, perfection has been achieved, this thread is now obsolete

[DpadJoe]

Because it's easier to dismiss people than to argue the merits of their positions. That shit takes so much effort.

Also, the reverse of oppression is non-oppression. So yes, you're right--there's no oppression going on here. These are simply opinions on an internet forum.

I agree with Analoge here, you are telling people who have dealt with discrimination how they should feel about being marginalised see you are in a privileged position where you don't have to deal with LGBT discrimination and when you try to downplay/deny people who are trying to get more representation you are then trying to oppress them.

See the thing I have cisgender white male privilage, instead of downplaying other races and trans people I try to understand that their issues exist and that I should try and emphasise when they face issues that I don't have to.

Oh and the it's your fault for being offended comment is so fucking stupid and ignorant it's untrue, tell that to mothers who have to deal with their LGBT children committing suicide, tell them their children shouldn't of got offended.

I honestly would love to go through every post but this post has already delayed me enough and unfortunately I wont get a chance till later on to get back on.

[Revuhlooshun]

I agree with Analoge here, you are telling people who have dealt with discrimination how they should feel about being marginalised see you are in a privileged position where you don't have to deal with LGBT discrimination and when you try to downplay/deny people who are trying to get more representation you are then trying to oppress them.

Nope. Never told anyone how to feel. Also, how do you know that I'm privileged? How do you know what race I am? How do you know what life I've lived? How do you know that I'm not gay myself? Just who the Hell are you to judge anyone's life, especially a stranger's? You let your assumptions get the best of you.

See the thing I have cisgender white male privilage, instead of downplaying other races and trans people I try to understand that their issues exist and that I should try and emphasise when they face issues that I don't have to.

Nope. Never downplayed anybody. Never denied that their problems exist either.

Oh and the it's your fault for being offended comment is so fucking stupid and ignorant it's untrue, tell that to mothers who have to deal with their LGBT children committing suicide, tell them their children shouldn't of got offended.

Nope. Never said it was anyone's fault for being offended. You have the wrong guy. Although, I don't see why you are entitled to not being offended in life. I have news for you:

Life is offensive.

To reiterate an earlier observation:

There's a recurring pattern here of people on the other side of this discussion putting words into people's mouths and rearranging sentences.

[Stevil]

Also, why don't we have black bills? As in money. Here in Canada we have blue, purple, green, redish, and brown, but no black bills to be seen. Now while I know it would only cater to the 0.71% of the target consumer, but still. There should be at least SOME black bills in circulation for the people that prefer it.

I think that's because it would be easier to counterfeit. All you'd need is a photocopier and some toner. I'm just saying, colour ink don't come cheap!

[GlowBear]

A lot of people assume that to be gay you must be all up in that political jazz, complaining and being offended. It's not like that at all, but then again I'm not one of those people that are part of groups/societies/petitions ect. My sexuality is predominantly a gay one, yet I have no interest in being labelled by others. I find a phrase is the best way of describing my orientation.

My problem with representation is that sometimes I feel like I am excluded because I don't fit the stereotypical 'traits' or tick all the boxes. I have never really suffered any abuse because of my leanings, most people assume I'm just a straight girl anyway, though ironically here I've had some idiotic assumptions made and derogatory lines in PM's made against who I am and what people assume I am, here of all places.

My sexuality is wholly within me (I like who I like, it's mainly women...all the time) and not meant as a statement, I don't walk a 'gay' walk, not that other gay people purposely want to be a walking statements, but be honest queer folk, there are plenty out there that relish in letting the world know and wanting negativity so they can boast louder.

This isn't confined to sexual orientation either.Most of the time, if there's no discrimination going on and if it's just a case of lazy representation I don't always care enough to make a deal about it. I just want dem boobies to say hi to my boobies.

And while people may moan about Bioware this and that, as I said before look at the character of Juhani or look at how the so called stereotypical character in ME2 who you'd think would have been a lesbian, wasn't at all. Whether you like Mass Effect or Bioware or not, however they integrated homosexuality they did so in a manner, that would be nice to see reflected in reality - i.e it's no big deal, normal and doesn't require a hoo-ha build up and spectacle.

[Shinobi13]

Also, how do you know that I'm privileged? How do you know what life I've lived? Just who the Hell are you to judge anyone's life, especially a stranger's? You let your assumptions get the best of you.

Life is offensive.

Speaking of putting words in someone else's mouth, you took the words right out of mine!

[digtastik]

My dude in Dragon Age accidentally hooked up with a male prostitute. Not what I meant to do, but I laughed and carried on. Is that gay?

[ZombiePlatypus]

My dude in Dragon Age hooked up with a dude on purpose. Needed that Zev acheivement, yo.

My dude in Dragon Age 2 hooked up with a dude accidentally. That brothel, man.

[Tarvu]

Gonna need to replay DA:O sometime. Luckily I have a debilitating Skyrim monkey on my back to keep me away from such a commitment.