02-10-2013, 10:52 AM
True, from that perspective.
The point still stands, though.
02-10-2013, 11:50 AM
[Level 2: Human]
To create a game involving a likable protagonist who happens to be gay:
Originally Posted by Byronic Man
1) Write any standard love story
2) Insert male love interest instead of female
3) Don't make a fuss about it
That simple really.
I don't want some cheesy back story about how he struggled with being gay when he grew up, I don't want any issue piece about how he receives abuse from random people he doesn't know.
Just make him gay, and make it a good romantic interest. You know, well written and stuff?
Also the fact the people just automatically assume the character is straight is a shame, I can't say I don't do the same thing. It is just how our society works, the problem is that when anyone differs from the norm and makes a gay love interest, they don't just write their story and think, "my that was marvelously well written, aren't I awesome". instead they think, "this isn't what people are used to....I now must add all the fluff in the world to make it a statement piece!"
That's where I lose interest in what they are peddling. It's not like when you write a straight character into a videogame, you give them a big long backstory about how they realised they like to sleep with women. You just state this is how it is, and move on.
02-10-2013, 11:56 AM
I see what Victor is saying, though. If a character's sexual preference is continuously pointed out, sexuality has now become part of narrative. Maybe it's the types of games I prefer, but generally speaking, I'm not interested in any of the characters' sexualities; I don't really care. Make one or fifty of the characters in a game gay. When it gets to the point where sexuality is emphasized beyond the point of cursory character identification, I'm left wondering, "Why the fuck is this even noteworthy?" Unless the game is trying to develop deep, emotional ties with the characters, bringing in doses of sexuality just seems completely unnecessary, regardless of whether it's hetero or homosexual in nature.
I'm trying to fight ZAMBIES and ALIENZ, not play Days of our Lives.
02-11-2013, 07:19 AM
[Level 4: Cyborg]
Straight people are "pointed out?" When a man and a woman kiss in public, are they forcing their heterosexuality on me or is that just PDA? I rank it as PDA. Two men kissing in public is not ranked as PDA by heterosexuals, but as those gay men "forcing" their sexuality on others or pointing themselves out.
The heterosexual couple would, at worst, be told to get a room. The homosexual couple would provoke a series of unsavory responses, disgusted stares or unnerving silence even in the most liberal of places.
Heterosexuals aren't really pointed out. The fact that LGBT folks have to closet themselves to an extent to get by in the day-to-day should highlight this fact.
02-11-2013, 07:56 AM
[Level 2: Human]
Promised myself not to get involved as I'm sure what I'd say has already been said far more eloquently by others but:
Originally Posted by Pixielated
I don't mean that in a confrontational way but there is definitely truth in that. The sad fact is that in our society we are wired by default to assume "straight until proven otherwise" and this goes doubly so in our fiction. In fiction we are given only the facts we are presented with, what the creators deem worth saying. Yes speculation and conjecture are all well and good but until explicitly approved or agreed with by the creators that's all it can ever be.
Sadly, if you want a character to be gay and want the audience to know this then it must at some point in some way be made explicit. Obviously, there are different ways of telling them this (or preferably showing) but it has to be made clear if that is what the creator wants you to know. The only time in real life and in fiction that a character is not automatically assumed straight is, unfortunately, when we are presented with a stereotype. Usually in this scenario it is often a derogatory one-not always to the same extent but more often or not the connotation is there.
So, yeah at some point the creator wanting to avoid stereotype but introduce this as a facet of a character's character has to bring it up. Again, there are levels of execution here and some are definitely better than others. Sadly it still feels from a LGBT perspective that as soon as any indication is made a section of the audience will declare it "shoe horned in" or "forced".
Well, not to beat Pixie's drum but LGBT audiences rarely declare that the heterosexual characters being introduced as such are "forced" (there are exceptions to this though, I have seen a lot of people declare various het. romantic subplots as out of place and unnecessary). Revealing that a character is not heterosexual (and it is always a reveal because of that innate "heterosexual bias" our society has) does not automatically make it shoe-horned or break the immersion of the fiction (unless you're the kind of narrow minded individual who lives in a dream world where non-heterosexuals don't exist and cannot exist). Likewise, saying (or showing) a character is LGBT does not make that their single defining trait. Poor writing might make it so in some cases but not always, again unless once you hear or see LGBT and you cannot move beyond it.
02-11-2013, 08:09 AM
I'm sorry, I really don't get what you said. Is "point out" an idiom I don't know about?
02-11-2013, 08:12 AM
PDA in general is not needed. I mean I don't want to hide my passion for someone, regardless or gender and it'd be nice of them to show it in public, but you don't have to mouth-copulate on a train. Wait a while...add some sexual tension and excitment for god sake.
02-11-2013, 08:13 AM
02-11-2013, 08:17 AM
Public Displays of Affection - usually means mainly when people suck the life essence out of each other. General kissing and hand holding ect is fine.
02-11-2013, 08:17 AM
Public display of affection.
02-11-2013, 08:28 AM
Er yeah I know. But then you'd get people saying why does he need to be gay for the purpose of the game. He's only gay to be politically correct. And so on.
Originally Posted by GT459
The point is that decrying these (highlighted) elements as negative reinforces the othering of gay characters and inclusion of homosexuality in games. He shouldn't need to have a backstory where he struggled with his homosexuality unless it's warranted by the plot, just like he shouldn't need to be gay unless warranted by the plot.
02-11-2013, 08:33 AM
Oh right... but then when you talk about PDAs, you mean in games? Because I can't think of too many games where characters have long make-out sessions, atleast not games where romance isn't an aspect of the gameplay.
Originally Posted by GlowBear
I was under the impression that outside of games where you have a specific romance/dating aspect (like Mass Effect) it's mostly just sub-text and implied - a furtive look, a character expressing especial concern for somebody else. I mean I could be wrong but I can't remember Nathan Drake ever declaring his love for Elena or them making out, but it's obvious they have a thing of some sort. Personally I don't see why they couldn't just as easily apply to two male characters, two female characters, or whatever else.
02-11-2013, 08:38 AM
I was just generally speaking. But in terms of game PDA's...nope can't think of any. Games usually have kissing (usually dodgily animated), sex scenes that are blanked (Fable "oooh you are norty"), shown but ridiculous (God of War), or shown and border tastifully done and softcore porn (Bioware games)
02-11-2013, 08:53 AM
They got married. I know that doesn't necessarily mean he's straight and it could easily tie into the theory that Drake is a neurotic ball of insecurities from having buried his true sexuality all these years, and that Nate and Drake have more of an Ancient Greek relationship than iis let on... but Naughty Dog will probably never bow to fan demand.
Originally Posted by Panzadolphin56
02-11-2013, 09:08 AM
Did they? When?
EDIT: Holy fuck, you're right. Oh, well. Goes to show how little I care about Uncharted.
02-11-2013, 11:12 AM
I am disgusted by any PDA. Unless it were two girls. Then it might be different.
02-11-2013, 11:13 AM
Yeah, I've played all 3 and I didn't even realise this.
Originally Posted by Victor
02-12-2013, 04:32 PM
[Level 2: Human]
You could argue the exact same thing cept replace gay for straight. It is generally not necessary to include sexuality at all - although to relate to a character it helps to have a believable love story you can get involved in.
Originally Posted by Byronic Man
True some people might go, "EWWWW! He likes boys!", but so what fuck em. It is the story that the game maker wanted to tell who gives a shit if some people don't like him kissing boys. Studios shouldn't be afraid of touching this side of things - which more and more it seems they are. When we have to rely on games like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRbHZE-ni-Y - to tell a gay story, you know something is wrong.
Seriously wiki gay videogame characters - the list is by no means complete I will admit freely, although the overwhelming percentage of gay in videogames is side characters - more often then not either perverts or gender confused/ridiculously exaggerated. Would it really be that damaging for Nathan to be gay in Uncharted? Would it change anything plot wise? Just remove Elenas breasts, give her a cock and call her Alan. Plot stays the same, romance stays the same, and who knows might just enlighten one or two people.