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Thread: LGBT Issues and Vidja Games

  1. #381
    [Level 5: Mech] Pixielated's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorilla Gravy View Post
    Tony Prince will always be 10 times the gay character Kanji is because Tony is actually gay and, like you said, Kanji's is unconfirmed.

    The first step to having a good gay character is to have a character that's actually unquestionably gay and not dance around their sexuality with innuendo and symbolism.
    The thing is he did cop to liking dudes right in front of everyone - that's a part of what he was struggling with. Doesn't mean he has it totally figured out yet. Some people shift sexually, too, which is why I think he could be pansexual given other scenes in the game. It doesn't have to be so black-and-white.

    I say I'm lesbian to save time, but if I were to break it down, I'm lesbian-pansexual. 99.95% interested in women, genetic or transgender. The other .05% is guys. Its a very, very, very small possibility I could take interest romantically in a guy. Not impossible, but also not all that probable. It just is what it is.

    At the end of the day, what matters is if the presentation of those characters came across and possibly even helped people. Turns out that's the case with Kanji and Naoto in some instances. I'm not really all that interested in who is a "real" gay character, but if their portray helps or changes perceptions. Some people think Cortez in ME3 was an eye-opener. I don't but who am I to complain if that helped them change their tune?

  2. #382
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    ^Another actually gay character who's a million times better than Kanji.

  3. #383
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    He's gay?

  4. #384
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    Yeah, Hammerlock mentions that Taggart was one of his old boyfriends, in a sidequest. It's a small thing that wouldn't be difficult to miss if you're not paying attention.

  5. #385
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    So the best kind of gay character is one who casually mentions they're gay at some point but never speaks of it again?

    I'm a little confused by this argument. I understand both sides but I don't think either is right. I see nothing wrong with a flamboyantly stereotypical gay character as long as they're well-written and believable. The same goes for a character who incidentally happens to be gay but is not predominately defined by their sexual preference.

    Trying to pinpoint the right formula for "how to properly make a LGBT character" seems to be missing the much larger and more important issue; we need more diversity in games, period. We need more people of all walks of life creating game content. You can already see a shift in the indie scene with stuff like Twine and Game Maker empowering a diverse audience and transforming them into authors with potentially loud voices.

    I feel like most AAA game developers see LGBT audiences as a market opportunity, not as an audience to be respectfully spoken to (I'm looking at you, Bioware). If you want to see meaningful queer content in games and you're looking at Borderlands or GTA, you're looking in the wrong fucking place. Twine games would be a good place to start.

  6. #386
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    Bullshit. Gay Tony was totally a fair representation of a gay guy. And guys named Tony. Probably. I don't know any Tonys.

  7. #387
    [Level 5: Mech] Pixielated's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadStar View Post
    Trying to pinpoint the right formula for "how to properly make a LGBT character" seems to be missing the much larger and more important issue; we need more diversity in games, period. We need more people of all walks of life creating game content. You can already see a shift in the indie scene with stuff like Twine and Game Maker empowering a diverse audience and transforming them into authors with potentially loud voices.

    I feel like most AAA game developers see LGBT audiences as a market opportunity, not as an audience to be respectfully spoken to (I'm looking at you, Bioware). If you want to see meaningful queer content in games and you're looking at Borderlands or GTA, you're looking in the wrong fucking place. Twine games would be a good place to start.
    You'll get no argument from me that all groups need to be represented and have people from all walks of life writing and designing game characters. It is going to happen more and more often with less mainstream devs/publishers and indie developers than it will with massive third parties. I don't think AAA is entirely a lost cause, particularly since -as I mentioned with Rockstar - narratives are maturing on other respects. Rockstar explores age, RPGs in recent years have explored deeper character socialization which can go a lot of directions. Nintendo's even getting in on that more with how they're expanding Fire Emblem.

    It might still be hetero-centric, but its something we didn't have as often several years back as we do now.

    And graphics are now at a point where they're only going to get you so far. When graphics fail to impress gameplay content and story are going to have to be more deeply emphasized. That's not a hard and fast rule for indies, though, they can be minimalist as hell and still tell a moving story - its just not how AAA studios are going to go about it due to an obsession with shiny new hardware. They're still going to see the diminishing returns on visual prowess, though.

    I can honestly say as impressive as Quantic Dreams games look, they fall apart on story each and every time because David Cage is a hack writer. He might hook in people in their teens and early 20s, but his work its laughable to anyone a little more world-weary. The Walking Dead rips Heavy Rain to shreds because it focused on a diverse cast of unique characters - not just in ethnicity, but in disposition. I dislike Larry, but he does have a frailty and he is a father, so he's not entirely a monster.

    Its really all about nuance no matter who you're writing. When you look at a character like Adam Jensen in DXHR, you see some people hit all the right notes about issues people off different races, sexualities and gender presentation. A cyberpunk story can be white and heterosexual and still manages to touch many diverse issues because its always about exploring the relationship between humanity, technology and social class. The Matrix never really got there successfully but Blade Runner, Ghost in the Shell and DX tend to hit all the right notes.

  8. #388
    Deus Ex Human revolution was extremely superficial in how it dealt with transhumanism, though.

  9. #389
    [Level 5: Mech] Pixielated's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Byronic Man View Post
    Deus Ex Human revolution was extremely superficial in how it dealt with transhumanism, though.
    Was it? There was classism, Adam Jensen was judged on appearance for choices he did not make and had no control over. Some people opted for subdermal augmentations so they wouldn't be openly judged or attacked for being augmented. Then you have the Harvesters, who are essentially augmented rapists, either forcing augmentations on those that don't want them or gutting others for parts. There were even slurs like "Aug" and "natch" thrown around.

    Then there was Taggart, who's basically wants to suppress augmentation by way of moral authority - though Taggart was repping for a vast left-wing conspiracy while Sarif embodied the vast corporate corruption of the right. Unchecked Freedom vs. Faux Democracy.

    So i'm going to disagree that these were superficial things. Adam smashing the mirror was a little more than a personality quirk. I don't need extra story to fill in those gaps.

  10. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pixielated View Post
    Was it? There was classism, Adam Jensen was judged on appearance for choices he did not make and had no control over. Some people opted for subdermal augmentations so they wouldn't be openly judged or attacked for being augmented. Then you have the Harvesters, who are essentially augmented rapists, either forcing augmentations on those that don't want them or gutting others for parts. There were even slurs like "Aug" and "natch" thrown around.

    Then there was Taggart, who's basically wants to suppress augmentation by way of moral authority - though Taggart was repping for a vast left-wing conspiracy while Sarif embodied the vast corporate corruption of the right. Unchecked Freedom vs. Faux Democracy.

    So i'm going to disagree that these were superficial things. Adam smashing the mirror was a little more than a personality quirk. I don't need extra story to fill in those gaps.
    You thought Taggart was left wing? I saw him more as a metaphor for the classic Illuminati conspiracy theory, which if it were "true" seems about as right wing as you can get. I actually felt conflicted about his ideas, because as much as I might hate to admit it, at the time I thought he had the best strategy for everyone involved. Not sure what I'd think if I played it again now however. It's been a while and I'm not sure I remember the important bits.

  11. #391
    Quote Originally Posted by Pixielated View Post
    Was it? There was classism, Adam Jensen was judged on appearance for choices he did not make and had no control over. Some people opted for subdermal augmentations so they wouldn't be openly judged or attacked for being augmented. Then you have the Harvesters, who are essentially augmented rapists, either forcing augmentations on those that don't want them or gutting others for parts. There were even slurs like "Aug" and "natch" thrown around.

    Then there was Taggart, who's basically wants to suppress augmentation by way of moral authority - though Taggart was repping for a vast left-wing conspiracy while Sarif embodied the vast corporate corruption of the right. Unchecked Freedom vs. Faux Democracy.

    So i'm going to disagree that these were superficial things. Adam smashing the mirror was a little more than a personality quirk. I don't need extra story to fill in those gaps.
    That's the long of it, unfortunately. You need to exercise some imagination to get some worth out of it as it's little more than bare thematics, ience superficial. They never got into any of it although it could have been very interesting.

  12. #392
    [Level 5: Mech] Pixielated's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Legendhead View Post
    You thought Taggart was left wing? I saw him more as a metaphor for the classic Illuminati conspiracy theory, which if it were "true" seems about as right wing as you can get. I actually felt conflicted about his ideas, because as much as I might hate to admit it, at the time I thought he had the best strategy for everyone involved. Not sure what I'd think if I played it again now however. It's been a while and I'm not sure I remember the important bits.
    Most Illuminati portrayals I'm familiar with are left wing extremists. Why have a shadow government if you're not going to put business, government and democracy under your thumb?

    We don't like Democrat or Republican senators when they talk about censoring video games. This is because we have a First Amendment that says its protected speech, a Supreme Court that reaffirmed it and a president that knows he's stepping into serious ethical shit if he tries to control it - so he doesn't.

    Trying to control something, to circumvent all these checks and balances we have there by design, is to pitch so hard to the left it makes Chris Matthews and James Carville seem like Shawn Hannity and Glenn Beck. To be extreme left is to overregulate and control, to be extreme right is to deregulate to the point corporate power is unchecked.

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  14. #394
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    Thought you guys could appreciate my emblem in COD. Oh the slurs it brings about.

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  15. #395
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    On Xbox Live? I thought Microsoft banned people for being gay or something.

  16. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pixielated View Post
    Most Illuminati portrayals I'm familiar with are left wing extremists. Why have a shadow government if you're not going to put business, government and democracy under your thumb?

    We don't like Democrat or Republican senators when they talk about censoring video games. This is because we have a First Amendment that says its protected speech, a Supreme Court that reaffirmed it and a president that knows he's stepping into serious ethical shit if he tries to control it - so he doesn't.

    Trying to control something, to circumvent all these checks and balances we have there by design, is to pitch so hard to the left it makes Chris Matthews and James Carville seem like Shawn Hannity and Glenn Beck. To be extreme left is to overregulate and control, to be extreme right is to deregulate to the point corporate power is unchecked.
    Oh hey, sorry it took so long for me to respond to this. I just didn't have anything to add to what you said. But yeah, I instinctively associated Taggart with George Bush, which is understandable all things considered. Wouldn't mind replaying it, just to see if I'd still think he had the best plan. Sarif would've limited augs to the rich, there was another guy who wanted them gone altogether -- I don't remember the details very well at the moment, obviously, which is another reason to revisit the game again. Good answer though.

  17. #397
    [Level 2: Human] GT459's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadStar View Post
    So the best kind of gay character is one who casually mentions they're gay at some point but never speaks of it again?
    Not much to say in regards to the transhumanism aspects of DX:HR so i'll respond to this instead xD

    Personally I think the answer is yes, I don't want to play a game where a character is gay and that's all there is to him. I would much rather it be a case of he's gay, well done, move on, why's he saving the fucking world?

    People seem to be bashing Bioware for wanting to include LGBT in SWTOR, and yes it took them a while to implement it, but if I recall it was something they wanted in from the very get go. (Admittedly SW:TOR is now a joke, but I played when it first came out and would of liked it then.) I may be wrong but from what I have seen Bioware has done a damn good job of making me happy to even be included, while most companies just gloss over the fact that we exist.

    Although as I say why a gay character should even be pointed out as being gay is beyond me, does it matter? really?

    Surely drawing attention to the fact that they are is making a much bigger issue of it then needs to be made. Yes I appreciate the issues in regards to online gaming and the hate that can be received etc etc. As well as how explicitly including the LGBT community in videogames *could* potentially help in that regard.

    Personally I would just rather play a guy who could like dick or could not and it not have any reflection on plot/character design.

  18. #398
    Quote Originally Posted by GT459 View Post
    Not much to say in regards to the transhumanism aspects of DX:HR so i'll respond to this instead xD

    Personally I think the answer is yes, I don't want to play a game where a character is gay and that's all there is to him. I would much rather it be a case of he's gay, well done, move on, why's he saving the fucking world?

    People seem to be bashing Bioware for wanting to include LGBT in SWTOR, and yes it took them a while to implement it, but if I recall it was something they wanted in from the very get go. (Admittedly SW:TOR is now a joke, but I played when it first came out and would of liked it then.) I may be wrong but from what I have seen Bioware has done a damn good job of making me happy to even be included, while most companies just gloss over the fact that we exist.

    Although as I say why a gay character should even be pointed out as being gay is beyond me, does it matter? really?

    Surely drawing attention to the fact that they are is making a much bigger issue of it then needs to be made. Yes I appreciate the issues in regards to online gaming and the hate that can be received etc etc. As well as how explicitly including the LGBT community in videogames *could* potentially help in that regard.

    Personally I would just rather play a guy who could like dick or could not and it not have any reflection on plot/character design.
    Probably for similar reasons that characters should be pointed out as straight, whether through announcement, plot or character interaction. It's kind of disconcerting when people say it's ok for someone (fictional or non-fictional) to be gay, so long as they're not identified as gay.

  19. #399
    But I really don't see a lot of characters being pointed out as straight. Sure, I just assume they are, but I haven't noticed a trend in the way of activelly pointing out their orientation.

    I think the point is not making being gay the only thing the character is there for.

  20. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    But I really don't see a lot of characters being pointed out as straight. Sure, I just assume they are, but I haven't noticed a trend in the way of activelly pointing out their orientation.

    I think the point is not making being gay the only thing the character is there for.
    Tons of main characters are pointed out as straight. If a game features a romantic subplot to any degree, chances are strong that the characters involved (i.e. usually the player character) are straight.

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