LGBT Issues and Vidja Games

[DpadJoe]

We can't go anywhere if the cart isn't tied to a horse. Regular Joes can bang on the table all they want, but eventually someone has to write these stories--these characters are not going to write themselves. Instead of wondering why other people outside your community won't write them for you, why not rally those in the community to start the effort? When has any minority ever waited for someone else to come and save them? Instead of waiting around for someone else to help you, help yourself. Be active in the solution, not passively awaiting it. Instead of slagging on Bioware for not giving you what you want, why not show them how it's done?

I have not slagged bioware off in this thread, I do think the gay planet is about the stupidest way you could handle the situation BUT I don't actually mind the way they have dealt with gay relationships in their games I think it has been perfectly fine and applaud them for actually making it an option, every bioware game I have played I have found the protagonist extremely dull but that's a completely different discussion.

It's not about about "waiting for someone to save them" it's silly to think straight guys can't write gay characters as if you need a handbook, as has been stated through the thread you can have characters in the game who just happen to be gay and not go into that a serious subject. If it is a subject in a game then that's slightly different as that is dealing with experiences that a straight writer may have trouble with, however why not ask the gay community, I'm sure they would get more than enough perspective to write about the topic in a realistic way. I would ask whether every black or hispanic character has been written by only people of that race, I'm guessing not although if a white person were to deal with the issues of race they would just research and educate themselves rather than not deal with the topic.

My theory is that a lot of writers probably have tried to have gay characters but been denied by the publisher as they are worried about lossing sales but this is a theory I can't prove but I think it highly probable.

Oh side note, me as a gamer bringing this up as an issue is the only way I can influence the industry in a effective way, I don't write games I don't particularly want too, if that statement is directed to gay writers fine but the rest of the gay gaming community don't really have a hand in that.

[Revuhlooshun]

It's not about about "waiting for someone to save them" it's silly to think straight guys can't write gay characters as if you need a handbook, as has been stated through the thread you can have characters in the game who just happen to be gay and not go into that a serious subject. If it is a subject in a game then that's slightly different as that is dealing with experiences that a straight writer may have trouble with, however why not ask the gay community, I'm sure they would get more than enough perspective to write about the topic in a realistic way. I would ask whether every black or hispanic character has been written by only people of that race, I'm guessing not although if a white person were to deal with the issues of race they would just research and educate themselves rather than not deal with the topic.

...so instead of looking at what I said and thinking, "Hmm, you know what? That's a pretty good point. Why don't I make an effort to make the gay characters that I want to see if their absence bothers me so much?", your response is, "That's absurd! Straight people are perfectly capable of doing the work for me! Look at all those really shallow black and hispanic characters that they write!"

Which is ironic, given that we're sitting in a thread originally devoted to straight people fucking up gay characters and storylines.

Oh side note, me as a gamer bringing this up as an issue is the only way I can influence the industry in a effective way, I don't write games I don't particularly want too, if that statement is directed to gay writers fine but the rest of the gay gaming community don't really have a hand in that.

Then how much does this problem really bother you if you're not willing to be part of its solution, even if in a very minimal way? Apparently, it doesn't bother you very much if you can't find the motivation to do anything other than complain about it. You've written multiple pages worth of material in this thread, so you're clearly capable of organizing words into coherent paragraphs. The independent game market is as open as it has ever been, and it only takes a handful of people to make stuff happen these days. Hell, you could write and publish your own novels focusing on homosexuals if you really wanted to, letting you skip over the hurdles of programming code and possibly leading you into a career in either game development or film production to then bring about serious change on this issue. But don't sit and say that a writer should do this or that for you when you can't even be bothered enough to do it yourself. A writer owes nothing to anyone but themselves.

[DpadJoe]

...so instead of looking at what I said and thinking, "Hmm, you know what? That's a pretty good point. Why don't I make an effort to make the gay characters that I want to see if their absence bothers me so much?", your response is, "That's absurd! Straight people are perfectly capable of doing the work for me! Look at all those really shallow black and hispanic characters that they write!"

Yes there are bad examples of black, hispanic and characters from other races but I would say there are also good examples like the walking dead and the darkness.

Then how much does this problem really bother you if you're not willing to be part of its solution, even if in a very minimal way? Apparently, it doesn't bother you very much if you can't find the motivation to do anything other than complain about it. You've written multiple pages worth of material in this thread, so you're clearly capable of organizing words into coherent paragraphs. The independent game market is as open as it has ever been, and it only takes a handful of people to make stuff happen these days. Hell, you could write and publish your own novels focusing on homosexuals if you really wanted to, letting you skip over the hurdles of programming code and possibly leading you into a career in either game development or film production to then bring about serious change on this issue. But don't sit and say that a writer should do this or that for you when you can't even be bothered enough to do it yourself. A writer owes nothing to anyone but themselves.

Sorry but I completely disagree with that, creating games/books ect is not the only way to solving the issue their are tons of youtube channels and blogs where people raise this but do not create novels, games ect and that is perfectly valid. Also does this mean that anyone who thinks gaming has an issue is unable to criticise games (or their writing) and look for answers unless they are working on their own version of game/book ect? Look at the debate over sexism in video games there are lots of people who write about it on blogs or forums but should their criticisms be overlooked or seen as lesser because they aren't creating a game, I would suggest strongly not.

I would prefer to create videos/blog posts addressing this issue and publicising it rather then create my own game addressing the issue, my choice in that does not make my criticism any less valid nor does it necessarily mean it won't have as much as an effect on the people making game, these people are generally gamers too and I'm sure follow blogs and Youtube channels. Lastly I prefer creating blogs ect as I like to analysis video games and look at where they are working well and where they have issues, that is something I enjoy, I don't just look at the relationship part of game I enjoy looking at game mechanics, artistic direction and many other aspects.

[ZombiePlatypus]

Wish I could find video of this sketch online.

Everybody Knew Who Everybody Was

Transcribed from: Comedy Central
Transcribed by: Marie (Ree) Panepinto

Cast:

• Mark- a very confused man
• Scott- Buddy Cole

[Mark is sitting at a table in a bar. He has on a strange grey wig and speaks with an exaggerated Canadian accent.]

Mark: I'm saying, right, is that in the old days, right, the women knew who the women were, the men knew who the men were, the women knew who the men were, and the men knew who the women were. Everybody knew who everybody was. Nowadays you can't tell the difference no more.

It's like I got this buddy of mine, right? He married this woman, right she turned out to be a guy. So, next time he got married, he married a guy. But this guy turned out to really be a guy. My friend outsmarted himself. Now he lives alone with a cat. At least he thinks it's a cat.

It's like the other day right, I'm in this bar, right? And this guy he's watching me from across the bar. Now in the old days if a guy was watching you from across the bar, it's cuz he was like slow upstairs, eh? Or he had a wandering eye. He was staring at you, but he couldn't help it! He couldn't! Now it might be because they're sweet on you.

Look all I'm saying is that in the old days, the men knew who the men were, the women knew who the women were, the men knew who the women were, and the women knew who the men were. Everybody knew who everybody was.

Scott: So what's your point?

Mark: I'm just confused, that's all buddy. Just confused.

Scott: Some more screech?

Mark: Oh, never touched the stuff.

[Dexter345]

Does anyone here actually believe that dev writers are actively avoiding the inclusion of any non-straight protagonists or otherwise important characters in a game?

Does anyone here think that if a dev writer fails to consider making a protagonist or otherwise important character non-straight, that writer is attempting to marginalise the entire LGBT minority?

I doubt you guys really believe that and if you I think you should either ask a writer of a game if you can about why they haven't included what you wanted them to include. I imagine their response will be that they simply hadn't considered it or they didn't feel it was necessary.

The only problem I see is when a dev does include a non-straight character there's usually a reason. Some reasons are nice and honest like a dev from whatever background feeling personally inclined to represent minorities in a game which I think is great. I'm sure someone could provide a long list of other reasons why devs have done this in the past. I haven't paid enough attention to TOR these days to understand or guess properly what their reasons were. First guess is EA wanted Bioware Austin to score Brownie points by increasing equality and making everyone but homophobes happy, which has its good points and bad points. My personal favourite good point is it alienates homophobes from gaming even further. My personal bad point until I read more into how their current new content was badly implemented was simply that this was a business decision to dabble in LGBT representation. I'm too cynical concerning EA and Bioware Austin to truly believe this was done more for equality and less about money or at least customer approval which then leads to money.

I look forward to the day that developers didn't have a reason to include LGBT, they just naturally included them, without thinking. I will never get mad at a writer for failing to do this right now though and it gives me another reason to look forward to the future.

Also, forgive me for saying this but I think others are trying to be offended with what people say in here. As always, I try to understand that words can leave a sting on some because they have had to cope with being the target of that word all their life and that others including myself simply don't have that same experience. I don't think someone is wrong to be offended by a word or phrase but I do think some people's lives would be better if they gave less of a crap what other people say. I've always thought the best way to remove someone of the tools to offend you and hurt your feelings is to simply render them useless by either stealing their words or just ignoring its offensive nature. I'm just saying this on the chance it helps. I guess a more internet-y way to say it would be to get thicker skin or something like that. Never that simple and easy for people though.

[edit] holy shit, long post. Maybe I care about posting stuff on the internet after all.

I think this goes with the point I was trying to make earlier. When a writer of any kind (game, television, movie, print) fails to include LGBT characters in his story, I don't think what is happening is a malicious exclusion. It's more likely that they just didn't consider it.

Also, here you go for transgendered protagonists.

http://www.destructoid.com/laharl-ge...2-242572.phtml

[Sir Legendhead]

Guys, just let me know if this is offensive. I'll delete it if you want. I think it's pretty funny though.



so free

[digtastik]

Guys, just let me know if this is offensive. I'll delete it if you want. I think it's pretty funny though.



so free

Those guys are both out.

[Sir Legendhead]

Those guys are both out.

I know, I was being a smartass again. Or was trying anyway.

[digtastik]

I think this goes with the point I was trying to make earlier. When a writer of any kind (game, television, movie, print) fails to include LGBT characters in his story, I don't think what is happening is a malicious exclusion. It's more likely that they just didn't consider it.

Also, here you go for transgendered protagonists.

http://www.destructoid.com/laharl-ge...2-242572.phtml

Remember when Samus was a guy but then not?

[ZombiePlatypus]

What do you mean by "out"? If it's in the traditional sense, only one of them is.

[Sir Legendhead]

I think he meant the guy who went to SNL, not Dave Foley. And Scott is well, Scott. lol

[digtastik]

What do you mean by "out"? If it's in the traditional sense, only one of them is.

I thought Dave was. My mistake.

[ZombiePlatypus]

I think he meant the guy who went to SNL, not Dave Foley. And Scott is well, Scott. lol

Nah, Mark isn't either. Nope, just Scott still.

[Sir Legendhead]

Nah, Mark isn't either. Nope, just Scott still.

I'm pretty sure there was more than one gay guy on Kids in the Hall. Could be wrong though.

Definitely wasn't Dave however, 'cause I read something about him getting ripped off by his wife when they got divorced. Well, "ripped off" is kind of a loaded term -- he lost a ton of money is what I'm trying to say.

[digtastik]

I've worked with 2 transgender people - both transwomen. I cannot imagine the difficulties in the process. One of them was a manager and she first came into the office, her entire team refused to accept it. The women in the office were reluctant to share a restroom with her. She continued her career for some time, before she left and started a new company.

The other was in more of a developer role I believe. She and I chatted at length about some of the challenges, and most of them just came down to acceptance. Joe society just simply struggles with the idea. She'd get a desk call and a customer would ask for "bob" and she'd say "yes, this is barbara." and it was just hard for the guy on the other end of the line to recover. It's an incredibly difficult thing for everyone involved.

Not sure where I was headed, or how it ties in with the video game issue.

[digtastik]

I'm pretty sure there was more than one gay guy on Kids in the Hall. Could be wrong though.

Definitely wasn't Dave however, 'cause I read something about him getting ripped off by his wife when they got divorced. Well, "ripped off" is kind of a loaded term -- he lost a ton of money is what I'm trying to say.

You'd be surprised by the number of gay men with wives. Related to that, the manager girl that I mentioned in my previous post was married. She ended up divorcing, but continued to live with her ex wife and her ex's new beau. Marriage doesn't matter.

[Sir Legendhead]

I've worked with 2 transgender people - both transwomen. I cannot imagine the difficulties in the process. One of them was a manager and she first came into the office, her entire team refused to accept it. The women in the office were reluctant to share a restroom with her. She continued her career for some time, before she left and started a new company.

The other was in more of a developer role I believe. She and I chatted at length about some of the challenges, and most of them just came down to acceptance. Joe society just simply struggles with the idea. She'd get a desk call and a customer would ask for "bob" and she'd say "yes, this is barbara." and it was just hard for the guy on the other end of the line to recover. It's an incredibly difficult thing for everyone involved.

Not sure where I was headed, or how it ties in with the video game issue.

Think I've mentioned this before but I have a very sincere and heartfelt respect for those who can just transform themselves like that. It goes along with many of my beliefs actually. Just look at Lana/Larry Wachowski and the Matrix films she made with her brother. They're amazing.

You'd be surprised by the number of gay men with wives. Related to that, the manager girl that I mentioned in my previous post was married. She ended up divorcing, but continued to live with her ex wife and her ex's new beau. Marriage doesn't matter.

Good points. My parents continued to live together after they were divorced. They got along better afterwards, actually. I guess that would seem weird to most people.

And as far as gay men with wives, eh. If a guy had a trans wife he really wouldn't be gay at all. Just a random thought I had! haha

(not sure if I'm using the correct term there, haven't read the entire thread in detail)

[digtastik]

It takes a conscious effort to not be a complete dickhead. Many people don't care to put forth the effort. It's much easier to snicker, point, & sneer. Acceptance is a motherfucker and so many people are too scared to face it.

[Tarvu]

Barbara was the name of the transgender character in The League of Gentlemen.

[digtastik]

I just used bob/Barbara as an example rather than use their real names.