LGBT Issues and Vidja Games

[digtastik]

All joking aside, it all comes down to money and consumers. The majority of consumers don't really care about issues in their games. They play games as an escape on the whole. Although these issues are important to some folks, the majority of the people plopping down the money for the games simply don't give a fuck. The publishers and developers are in it to win it, so they will develop and publish whatever sells.

If you suddenly convince the world that your lgbt conscious game is the must have goty, then you'll get what you want. Sadly, no development shop is going to champion that cause.

also, I like PEOPLE.

[Revuhlooshun]

People who are the right color.

I'm on to you.

[Sir Legendhead]

This page is hereby dedicated to Dig's filthy socialist people-liking agenda.

It's not the page we voted for. But it is the page we deserve.

[digtastik]

People who are the right color.

I'm on to you.

There's a black guy scaring a white baby as my avatar. Duh.

[Trev]

The figure is to illustrate how inconsequential the LGBT community is to the larger population ... The point of that figure was to ask, "How can a minority with such low numbers expect there to be adequate or abundant representation for them?"

I think your bluntness sets you up to be misinterpreted. "Why should X expect representation when there are so few of them?" can easily be misread as trying to make a case for them not to be represented. In fact, I imagine someone would use that phrase to do exactly that, and that gets emotions involved. I don't really have a conclusion for that, just kind of thought that might be where shit is getting hung up.

On the other hand, I got told to go to hell for daring to hypothetically approach someone as a person with similar interests instead of being concerned about their junk or who they'd like to use it on, so what do I know about manners?

The publishers and developers are in it to win it, so they will develop and publish whatever sells.

The dry, rational angle is that they would, at best, trade part of ~97% for part of ~3% while still raising the ire of a bunch of that 3% that disagree with the portrayals. Outside of yaoi fangirls and overzealous allies, I can't imagine a crowd it would pull in from the majority and even then I don't see it grabbing non-gamers or even gamers that don't like the genre. People that get through those filters might have bought it without LGBT characters in it. Then again, I'm not analyst. It's hard to blame pubs and devs for using a bald, light-skinned dude with no stated sexual orientation, gender identity, or religion when that non-character pushes away the smallest amount of people and it's $40 million or possibly your whole job on the line.

[Byronic Man]

are not scientific and therefore futile.

Confirmed: Rev is a Gatsby alt account.

It's very silly to say "I don't have a supremely calculated figure so I cannot condone any information pertaining to this matter" when we are perfectly equipped to make inferences from an abundance of familiarity and experience with the hobby. That being said, perhaps you're a "are there clowns on Mars" agnostic, short of the publication of a comprehensive study undertaken by NASA.

Also - not an attack but a point of clarification - confusion arose because you brought up the matter of statistics and proportionate representation in the first place, unless I'm mistaken. I wouldn't be taken aback if by 2014 LGBT protagonists were 6% or more of the industry total. The contention isn't over proportionate representation, but rather representation in general.

[Revuhlooshun]

Gatsby was hardly a champion of not pulling shit out of his ass, though. You can say that it's not silly that I don't want to pull shit out of my ass, but I beg to differ. I'm not going to make a definitive claim or statement when there's nothing to back it up, which is a principle that I'd like to think that most people are willing to subscribe to. We can infer and generalize all day, but what good does it do with nothing solid to prove anything? At that point, we're just trading biased perspectives and advancing nowhere.

And whatever the reason was for the confusion (since everybody has their own hypothesis for it, including myself), the point was apparently not clear, and now it has been clarified. That's all that matters.

[Analoge]

On the other hand, I got told to go to hell for daring to hypothetically approach someone as a person with similar interests instead of being concerned about their junk or who they'd like to use it on, so what do I know about manners?

That's fantastic. I love talking to people about similar interests we have. You're being very dismissive of other people's experiences, though. That's all I'm trying to get across. You're not going to be able to have any meaningful dialogue with a person, especially a person who comes from a different background than your own, unless you put aside this idea that people are just people and somehow exist outside of their own identities and experiences.

Honestly, I don't know why I'm still bothering to keep this dialogue going. People only see and hear what they want, and I'm just coming off as some bitchy woman who wants to throw stones at a nice boy scout who's trying to help us poor queers across the street.

[Konnery]

That's fantastic. I love talking to people about similar interests we have. You're being very dismissive of other people's experiences, though. That's all I'm trying to get across. You're not going to be able to have any meaningful dialogue with a person, especially a person who comes from a different background than your own, unless you put aside this idea that people are just people and somehow exist outside of their own identities and experiences.

Honestly, I don't know why I'm still bothering to keep this dialogue going. People only see and hear what they want, and I'm just coming off as some bitchy woman who wants to throw stones at a nice boy scout who's trying to help us poor queers across the street.

Well when you phrase something bitchily(is that even a word?) it's probably going to come across that way. Also, doesn't "People only see and hear what they want" directly apply to you as well? So this topic could generally just boil down to people pontificating ad nauseam for absolutely no reason other than to hear/see themselves talk and hell, any kind of discussion would be exactly the same.

Or not.

I really can't see where you're going with the "background" and experiences thing. I don't start talking to people immediately about my sexual history. Maybe somewhere down the line but, off the cuff, you don't start rattling off a ticker of people you've banged, why you've banged them, and whether or not it was a satisfying experience. I've probably done some things that would make the devil blush but you don't see me throwing those out there at the onset of a relationship because "well you can't have meaningful dialogue without it" because yes, yes you can.

If I go and talk to the producer of this album about all the music we like, the production, and the mixing and all of this...my sexuality and personal history have absolutely no bearing on that, and honestly why would it? Maybe I just don't get the whole "Everyone needs to know my business" line of thought.

[DpadJoe]

I think your bluntness sets you up to be misinterpreted. "Why should X expect representation when there are so few of them?" can easily be misread as trying to make a case for them not to be represented. In fact, I imagine someone would use that phrase to do exactly that, and that gets emotions involved. I don't really have a conclusion for that, just kind of thought that might be where shit is getting hung up.

You hit the nail on the head with the first paragraph, "Why should X expect representation when there are so few of them?" has been used to discriminate against minority groups for so long so does elicit strong emotion.

Then again, I'm not analyst. It's hard to blame pubs and devs for using a bald, light-skinned dude with no stated sexual orientation, gender identity, or religion when that non-character pushes away the smallest amount of people and it's $40 million or possibly your whole job on the line.

That is one of my main points, the industry has a big problem when it comes to this issue, most games feature the exact same main character (big gruff usually white straight guy) but change the voice and it obviously isn't working as only a handful of these type of games are doing well over saturation in the market.

Honestly, I don't know why I'm still bothering to keep this dialogue going. People only see and hear what they want, and I'm just coming off as some bitchy woman who wants to throw stones at a nice boy scout who's trying to help us poor queers across the street.

I must admit I have felt very similar to you at points during this thread, I can only speak for myself but to me your not coming off like that, at some points your seem very agitated but when a topic comes up that is as personal as this one is to you (including people getting your gender pronoun wrong) I can totally understand you getting upset/angry. From my experience a lot of people are still extremely ignorant about Trans rights and still show bigotry towards the topic so when it comes to you having strong emotions about a subject that I imagine you deal with on a constant basis it is completely understandable. Don't get down about it, please

[digtastik]

That is one of my main points, the industry has a big problem when it comes to this issue, most games feature the exact same main character (big gruff usually white straight guy) but change the voice and it obviously isn't working as only a handful of these type of games are doing well over saturation in the market.

The majority of consumers of these products don't see it as a problem.

Majority. Consumers.

[Byronic Man]

Gatsby was hardly a champion of not pulling shit out of his ass, though. You can say that it's not silly that I don't want to pull shit out of my ass, but I beg to differ. I'm not going to make a definitive claim or statement when there's nothing to back it up, which is a principle that I'd like to think that most people are willing to subscribe to. We can infer and generalize all day, but what good does it do with nothing solid to prove anything? At that point, we're just trading biased perspectives and advancing nowhere.

And whatever the reason was for the confusion (since everybody has their own hypothesis for it, including myself), the point was apparently not clear, and now it has been clarified. That's all that matters.

I'm working on the assumption that we've all played videogames here. Perhaps even frequently. Perhaps enough to notice trends. If you want something solid, head over to your library of PS3 and 360 games and count the instances of LGBT protagonists. Or even female protagonists. Then google for LGBT characters in games and count the protagonists. It should give you a workable idea.

[Analoge]

Well when you phrase something bitchily(is that even a word?) it's probably going to come across that way. Also, doesn't "People only see and hear what they want" directly apply to you as well? So this topic could generally just boil down to people pontificating ad nauseam for absolutely no reason other than to hear/see themselves talk and hell, any kind of discussion would be exactly the same.

Or not.

I really can't see where you're going with the "background" and experiences thing. I don't start talking to people immediately about my sexual history. Maybe somewhere down the line but, off the cuff, you don't start rattling off a ticker of people you've banged, why you've banged them, and whether or not it was a satisfying experience. I've probably done some things that would make the devil blush but you don't see me throwing those out there at the onset of a relationship because "well you can't have meaningful dialogue without it" because yes, yes you can.

If I go and talk to the producer of this album about all the music we like, the production, and the mixing and all of this...my sexuality and personal history have absolutely no bearing on that, and honestly why would it? Maybe I just don't get the whole "Everyone needs to know my business" line of thought.

Once again the T and the end of LGBT that has absolutely nothing to do with sex (coitus) is shuffled to the side while we talk about bumping uglies.

[DpadJoe]

The majority of consumers of these products don't see it as a problem.

Majority. Consumers.

Hmmm that's a healthy way to look at things remember these are selling to millions of people and DO affect how a lot of them think and develop as a person. This is exactly the attitude I despise the fact that the majority are okay means we don't have to think about the minority aka marginalisation. This is an attitude brought forward from the 1950s and is the type of thing that really is depressing.

[Revuhlooshun]

I'm working on the assumption that we've all played videogames here. Perhaps even frequently. Perhaps enough to notice trends. If you want something solid, head over to your library of PS3 and 360 games and count the instances of LGBT protagonists. Or even female protagonists. Then google for LGBT characters in games and count the protagonists. It should give you a workable idea.

I have not played or looked at every single PS3 or 360 game, nor have I played or looked at every single game on every single console in existence. Therefore, I am not qualified to determine whether or gay fictional characters are 1-3% the total population of fictional video game characters. I will not make a definitive statement without any evidence for it. Are my standards high? Maybe. But it's better than arguing with imaginary numbers that anybody can pull from the air.

Also, whether or not they are proportionate is entirely irrelevant to my point--this is again missing the forest for the trees. We've now gone in a circle as well.

[Victor]

Hmmm that's a healthy way to look at things

remember these are selling to millions of people and DO affect how a lot of them think and develop as a person. This is exactly the attitude I despise the fact that the majority are okay means we don't have to think about the minority aka marginalisation. This is an attitude brought forward from the 1950s and is the type of thing that really is depressing.

It's the kind of thing that's realistic when you talk about multi-million dollar investments.

[digtastik]

Hmmm that's a healthy way to look at things remember these are selling to millions of people and DO affect how a lot of them think and develop as a person. This is exactly the attitude I despise the fact that the majority are okay means we don't have to think about the minority aka marginalisation. This is an attitude brought forward from the 1950s and is the type of thing that really is depressing.

they're selling millions of copies to people who want them. consumers by and large are fucking stupid and happen to be their own worst enemies. good luck changing that.

[Trev]

That's fantastic. I love talking to people about similar interests we have. You're being very dismissive of other people's experiences, though. That's all I'm trying to get across. You're not going to be able to have any meaningful dialogue with a person, especially a person who comes from a different background than your own, unless you put aside this idea that people are just people and somehow exist outside of their own identities and experiences.

Honestly, I don't know why I'm still bothering to keep this dialogue going. People only see and hear what they want, and I'm just coming off as some bitchy woman who wants to throw stones at a nice boy scout who's trying to help us poor queers across the street.

No, I'm not. I never once said I didn't care about your experiences. I believe I said I DID care about your experiences, specifically because they were personal. They're unique. Your gender identity, however, isn't unique. Mine isn't either. Many people share them and they're normal. I've accepted that, though it may be in the minority, LGBT identities aren't abnormal or wrong. But since they're normal, why fault me for treating them all with equal disinterest? It's not like you require my approval. Hell, there are people out there on the internet that will tell you they're a dragon deep down inside. Transwoman isn't even pushing weird so, tough shit, I don't think you're special just for that. If I were to reveal such details about myself, I wouldn't expect you to care beyond obtaining factual information about me.

If I go and talk to the producer of this album about all the music we like, the production, and the mixing and all of this...my sexuality and personal history have absolutely no bearing on that, and honestly why would it? Maybe I just don't get the whole "Everyone needs to know my business" line of thought.

Kind of this.

I'm a rather private person and I don't like to sit around talking about specific persons' sexual identities, especially not to get to know them. Unless I missed something, this is the first conversation we've had, and it's just text boxes on the internet. I wouldn't say this is "meeting" or "getting to know", and I reserve more intimate topics like gender and sexual identity for much further down the line when there's some kind of trust.

[DpadJoe]

It's the kind of thing that's realistic when you talk about multi-million dollar investments.

movies, tv, games are all multi-million dollar investments and yet they all take a part in how people view the world and the people who inhabit it, movies and tv programs seem to be able to sell diverse packages without losing money and realise the importance of showing a range of diverse people and viewpoints to breed tolerance in society yet video games seem to lag sorely behind.

[Revuhlooshun]

Hmmm that's a healthy way to look at things remember these are selling to millions of people and DO affect how a lot of them think and develop as a person. This is exactly the attitude I despise the fact that the majority are okay means we don't have to think about the minority aka marginalisation. This is an attitude brought forward from the 1950s and is the type of thing that really is depressing.

So basically, nobody's trying to push a political point here. You just think that video games should be used to re-educate people and to persuade them into having a different point of view (which is somehow not political).

I'm not sure why "political" has become a dirty word in this thread, especially when it's for a noble political cause that I agree with. Just an aside.