LGBT Issues and Vidja Games

[Tarvu]

I think Dig obviously meant to say he doesn't care what is fucking what because animals have social interactions too.

Generally 9/10 I would agree with you but with sensitive subjects such as race, gender identity, sexism and sexuality it's always best to check. As I said the vast majority of time I would agree with you on that but I would say there are exceptions.

I'd say the exceptions would be FNF threads and other ones with important OPs.

[Victor]

So why did you try to simplify it into "I don't care who is fucking who." I understand what your are trying to say and maybe it's just me being a bit pedantic but that is major simplifying of relationships as this is about much more than that.

Try "really pedantic".

[Analoge]

And this is more or less exactly what I was getting at. You'll gladly defame the "exclusion" of LGBT sensitive character but when it's handled poorly you'll defame them usually even moreso. There's really no win in this kind of situation, except it's way easier to get away with the exclusion because there's no real case for it, you're just pointing fingers. Hence why a lot of developers probably just think it's better to avoid it completely.

That said, not as a personal attack, but that first paragraph comes off as prickly at best. I get that as a transgender woman there's a lot of discrimination against you, but I sincerely doubt being that aggressive in a response to potential ignorance is going to help anything at all.

I will not be gentle with willful ignorance and intentional mispronouning; however, I'm not assuming automatically that's what's going on here. Thus:

or you have not read the whole thread you're commenting in, which makes it extra silly that you're trying to sum up my argument in over simplistic terms.

But anyway, so you're presenting a horned argument where LGBT characters can only either be not included or done poorly? That's not exactly no win. Make good LGBT characters. That may be too hard for some artists, in which case I would suggest they simply not make the attempt. In any case, some effort should be made to represent people accurately if you're going to use a member of a marginalized group as a character in your work.

[usedtabe]

As DpadJoe said earlier, most games suck at presenting anything resembling humanity and relationships in characters, even the straight ones. He mentioned the Darkness doing it right, and I agree wholeheartedly with that(as well as the sequel). But those are 2 games that got it right out of millions that don't come close.

So while I have no problem with people desiring better representation of the characters they want to see, expecting it to happen is a tough call. It really is one of those situations where you need to contribute personally to the production if you want it done right. People have brought up LGBT presentation in other media, but isn't that mostly done by members of the LGBT community?

[Byronic Man]

I never said that they should have proportionate representation. I asked why they should have disproportionate representation, or why there should be an abundance of representation for a 1-3% minority (nor did I ever say that they were proportionally or disproportionately represented--we don't have the statistics to make such a judgement, given that rattling off characters from the top of our heads isn't very scientific). As I've said before, I don't care what their representation is, though here is a question worth asking: Why are gay people entitled to any representation whatsoever when they're a freckle on the population? Keep in mind that me asking that question does not mean that I think that they should have no representation at all (as I've clearly stated the opposite only a page ago). Furthermore, why should a writer be forced to include a gay character if that's not what they had envisioned for their story?

You guys approach this issue as if you're entitled to these characters, that it's somehow wrong if they're not included in a story. You are entitled to nothing. You want gay characters in fiction? Write them then. You guys have hands and a keyboard. Don't depend on other people to make them for you. If this is something you want to see, then make it happen. Take an active approach to fixing this problem by contributing gay characters.

This logic applies to all people, not just homosexuals. White people ain't entitled to shit, black people ain't entitled to shit, women ain't entitled to shit, and so on and so forth. You wanna see a story with so-and-so character with so-and-so beliefs? Write them then. Make it happen.

That would be an error of interpretation on your part. Nobody's claiming entitlement, nobody's saying game designers are obliged or should be forced to do anything. The points being made are on what ought to be, not what people should be forced to do.

if you feel it's an issue of entitlement, the question can be reflected back on you - why should heterosexuality be disproportionately represented? Why do so many straight people get so upset whenever somebody suggests there should be more gay characters? Why do so many gamers act so entitled to their straight while male majority? Framing it as "you only get in the media what you're entitle to" misconstrues the actual issue.

As for when devs will grow to include more LGBT protagonists, that should be obvious. When they cop on to the fact that they can. When they stop forgetting other people exist. When people who want LGBT characters and representation ask for it and are recognized. Hence this entire discussion.

Who said anything about being mad? Do you really think that the guy who spends an hour a day making political points in the politics thread is bothered by people making political points? There's a recurring pattern here of people on the other side of this discussion putting words into people's mouths and rearranging sentences.

If you don't care either way, why are you bothering?

- - - Updated - - -

I'm going to go back in time to the tiff over the term "tranny" at the start of the thread. As a dude that's never personally known a trans person I had no idea the word was considered offensive until about two years ago. It was actually at PAX East then that a Dtoider clued some of us in. Well, clued me in, I dunno if the others in the group knew this before or not. She also let us know that "eskimo" is offensive apparently. Again, how was I supposed to know? I never met any Inuits. Of course the term "midget" is offensive too, how many of us use that one without batting an eye?


Anyway, to the point of the thread, I'm all for the natural inclusion of people from all different walks of life. It's important to show them as people like everybody else. It may seem silly, but entertainment is actually very powerful in opening people's minds (or "corrupting our kids" as some would put it ) My own personal experience has nothing to do with video games, but it's all in that entertainment medium so I'll share. I'm heterosexual and never knew anybody who was openly anything but heterosexual until halfway through high school (when I moved from Virginia to Minnesota, incidentally). Dumb as it sounds, I truly believe watching and idolizing the Kids in the Hall after school back in VA, and genuinely liking the openly gay character of Northstar back when I was big on comic books really helped me not hold the close minded views of my parents and some of my friends and peers. Again, sorry if that sounds dumb or childish, but it's sincere. Since then I've met and become friends with a number of people with orientations different from mine. Hell, one of my cousins has "grown up" and "come out".

So from my "outside looking in" viewpoint, having realistic portrayals of LGBT people in video games could be some other kid's KitH or Northstar. It shouldn't be a gimmick or a quota thing, which this ToR planet seems to be. I agree with the folks who've said that BioWare has handled the issue better in the past.

Well said.

But those are NPCs. For protagonists, sure, there aren't nearly as many LGBT game protagonists as there "should be," if protagonists were people who were randomly selected from the general population. But that's the thing: fictional characters aren't randomly selected; they are created. If you got 100 character designers to each make a character, with the instructions of making that character an average person, you would not get 1-3 LGBT characters out of that, because they are not average characters.

Now, if instead of instructing those character designers to make an average person, you told them to just make a person, then perhaps you would expect more to be LGBT. I don't know.

This cuts to the heart of the problem. Most designers don't think to make anything but the straight, white or male protagonists because it's so normal to have a straight white male protagonist it's ubiquitous. And this is a cultural problem, of course. The more exposure people have of non-SWM characters, the less they come to expect that as the default, the done thing. In order to get out of that rut, a cultural shift is needed.

Incidentally, that why the common enough belief that videogame characters "just are" is total nonsense. Like it was said earlier that Meryl was straight because she was straight. It's based on the assumption that fictional characters aren't created by people who live in societies with pervasive cultural influences that, to greater or lesser degrees, characterize that person's conscious and subconscious thinking.

[Revuhlooshun]

if you feel it's an issue of entitlement, the question can be reflected back on you - why should heterosexuality be disproportionately represented? Why do so many straight people get so upset whenever somebody suggests there should be more gay characters? Why do so many gamers act so entitled to their straight while male majority? Framing it as "you only get in the media what you're entitle to" misconstrues the actual issue.

Why should heterosexuality be proportionally represented? Why should it be represented at all? Why should anyone or anything be represented in fiction? This goes back to the entitlement mentality at play here: "it should be this," "it should be that," "there should be this character." There should be nothing because you are entitled to nothing in life (besides your well-being and a minimum level of care). Again: If you think that there should be a certain character, then make them. You guys have hands and a keyboard, and you can write stories addressing these issues if it really bothers you that much. In fact, gay people themselves will probably do a much better job at writing a gay character than a straight person ever would.

And you don't get the media that you're entitled to because you're entitled to nothing. It's as if half the things I say fall into some void.

As for when devs will grow to include more LGBT protagonists, that should be obvious. When they cop on to the fact that they can. When they stop forgetting other people exist. When people who want LGBT characters and representation ask for it and are recognized. Hence this entire discussion.

No. It will be when people who care about this issue stop writing thesis papers on tumblr and start writing stories that address these problems.

If you don't care either way, why are you bothering?

Because I'm always looking for a debate and for people to challenge my views. It's good mental exercise.

[Tarvu]

So why are you here?

[Revuhlooshun]

I'm here for the ass.

[Byronic Man]

Why should they proportionally represented? Why should anybody be represented in fiction? This goes back to the entitlement mentality at play here: "It should be this," "it should be that," "there should be this character." There should be nothing. Again: If you think that there should be a certain character, then make them. You guys have hands and a keyboard, and you can write stories addressing these issues if it really bothers you that much.

And you don't get the media that you're entitled to because you're entitled to nothing. It's as if half the things I say fall into some void.

Either it's entitlement, as you say, or it's out of a human need for expression, identity, acceptance, enjoyment, etc., as everyone else is saying. Given how people have been seeking the latter for thousands of years, it's safe to say it's probably the latter.

No. It will be when people who care about this issue stop writing thesis papers on tumblr and start writing stories that address their problems.

I have a less cynical, less irreconcilable view of culture.

[Mighty Hatman]

So why are you here?

WHY IS ANYONE HERE?

[Tarvu]

Do you understand life?

I'm here for the ass.

Oh you editing bitch. WELL IT CERTAINLY IS A MENTAL EXERCISE. As in you're a mental.

[Revuhlooshun]

I have a less cynical, less irreconcilable view of culture.

I wouldn't say that it's cynical. This problem is easily fixed if people who care about it are willing to step forward and contribute gay characters, or characters of any persuasion that they'd like to see put forth. If anything, I'm rather optimistic about the problem because the solution is so readily available. And like I said, gay people will do a much better job of writing gay characters than a straight person would anyways, so why not get in the trenches if that's your issue?

Oh you editing bitch.

They never see 'em coming.

[Pixielated]

And this is more or less exactly what I was getting at. You'll gladly defame the "exclusion" of LGBT sensitive character but when it's handled poorly you'll defame them usually even moreso. There's really no win in this kind of situation, except it's way easier to get away with the exclusion because there's no real case for it, you're just pointing fingers. Hence why a lot of developers probably just think it's better to avoid it completely.

That said, not as a personal attack, but that first paragraph comes off as prickly at best. I get that as a transgender woman there's a lot of discrimination against you, but I sincerely doubt being that aggressive in a response to potential ignorance is going to help anything at all.

I can't condone the wording, but her avatar makes it rather obvious there's a transgender person behind it. That aside, if you don't know what someone's gender is, its always a good rule of thumb to go gender neutral in your pronouns until you know otherwise. I knew that before I accepted I was trans, so just putting that out there.

That said, if you intend to include a group in a story, you're also obligated to handle it well. There are two old sayings that apply here - "Write what you know" and "If you don't know what it is, don't touch it." If you don't know and want to write it, then you have to go educate yourself and talk with people. And really, there's a wealth of information and communities on the interent that would be more than happy to help.

I like to think the people at Obsidian and P Studio reflect that effort. There are no romances in Fallout New Vegas and Persona 4 and Catherine are strictly heterosexual affairs in terms of romance, but the LGBT characters are there being who they are and you have a guy like Arcade Ganon who's so normal he's almost boring. That he's gay is just a detail, its his evasiveness on other topics that gives him some intrigue.

Is it really so crazy to think sexuality and gender presentation could just be a minor detail? That is actually a big deal reveals a cultural problem, not a problem on the part of the person who's just trying to be themselves.

The reason there are people that are super "out" is because there are plenty of people obsessed with enforcing the norm. This on top of people coping with things differently, putting them on edge. Worse is when the ally ends up being the one making your version of normal exotic or a punchline. They're essentially okaying what they do when they say they are an ally.

That's why Bioware needs to do some serious soul-searching on this stuff and websites like Kotaku need to stop making excuses for them. That Mass Effect can handle it so well, but Dragon Age and SWTOR fuck it up so hard is a problem for eight studios calling themselves "Bioware."

[Analoge]

I can't condone the wording, but her avatar makes it rather obvious there's a transgender person behind it. That aside, if you don't know what someone's gender is, its always a good rule of thumb to go gender neutral in your pronouns until you know otherwise. I knew that before I accepted I was trans, so just putting that out there.

I'm sorry if I'm being bristly about this. The subject of my identity raises my hackles a bit on a good day, and I'm dealing with a lot of stressful things right now. My points still stand, however, and tone-policing me isn't doing anything but distracting from those points.

[Revuhlooshun]

Looking back on the last page finally, I see that quite a few people are getting hung up on the 1-3% figure, and that my point did not come across clearly. The figure is to illustrate how inconsequential the LGBT community is to the larger population, not to suggest that LGBT characters are or are not proportionate to the actual population. The point of that figure was to ask, "How can a minority with such low numbers expect there to be adequate or abundant representation for them?" Is every single obscure subculture entitled to some form of fictional representation? Where are all the albinos then? Where are their snarky gifs? Where are their tumblr pages? What about their trials and tribulations? Do you people not give a fuck about albinos?

And before anyone answers these rhetorical questions: You are not entitled to any representation in fiction. Nobody owes you anything. If you want to be represented, then make a stand and make it happen. And no, I'm sure that you care about albinos as people. Again, rhetorical.

There is no realistic way for us to determine if a subgroup is proportionately represented in this medium. These "characters off the top of my head," "100 imaginary developers that play to my biases" methods of guesstimation are not scientific and therefore futile. We would literally have to go through and analyze every single game in the last 30+ years to make an actual determination (which is why one was never made). But again, even doing so is missing the point of why the figure was used. You could be a part of a subgroup that's 90% of the population, but you're still not entitled to representation, although you are more likely to be represented simply due to the odds. It's why it shouldn't be surprising if characters like you are hard to come by if you're hard to come by yourself.

[digtastik]

I don't care about albinos. I just like to play games.

[Revuhlooshun]

What a monster.

[digtastik]

Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii'm the rootinest tootinest

[Sir Legendhead]

I worked with this guy when I was a teenager - check this shit out. Dude was a black albino twin, who was practicing to be an animator at Disney. He was like The Stereotype That Never Was. Holy fuck how magical can a mothafucka be. Oh yeah! He was fat too.

[usedtabe]

Check your pigment privilege Dig.