As DpadJoe said earlier, most games suck at presenting anything resembling humanity and relationships in characters, even the straight ones. He mentioned the Darkness doing it right, and I agree wholeheartedly with that(as well as the sequel). But those are 2 games that got it right out of millions that don't come close.
So while I have no problem with people desiring better representation of the characters they want to see, expecting it to happen is a tough call. It really is one of those situations where you need to contribute personally to the production if you want it done right. People have brought up LGBT presentation in other media, but isn't that mostly done by members of the LGBT community?
if you feel it's an issue of entitlement, the question can be reflected back on you - why should heterosexuality be disproportionately represented? Why do so many straight people get so upset whenever somebody suggests there should be more gay characters? Why do so many gamers act so entitled to their straight while male majority? Framing it as "you only get in the media what you're entitle to" misconstrues the actual issue.
As for when devs will grow to include more LGBT protagonists, that should be obvious. When they cop on to the fact that they can. When they stop forgetting other people exist. When people who want LGBT characters and representation ask for it and are recognized. Hence this entire discussion.
If you don't care either way, why are you bothering?Who said anything about being mad? Do you really think that the guy who spends an hour a day making political points in the politics thread is bothered by people making political points? There's a recurring pattern here of people on the other side of this discussion putting words into people's mouths and rearranging sentences.
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Incidentally, that why the common enough belief that videogame characters "just are" is total nonsense. Like it was said earlier that Meryl was straight because she was straight. It's based on the assumption that fictional characters aren't created by people who live in societies with pervasive cultural influences that, to greater or lesser degrees, characterize that person's conscious and subconscious thinking.
Last edited by Byronic Man; 01-16-2013 at 12:16 PM. Reason: non-non
Why should heterosexuality be proportionally represented? Why should it be represented at all? Why should anyone or anything be represented in fiction? This goes back to the entitlement mentality at play here: "it should be this," "it should be that," "there should be this character." There should be nothing because you are entitled to nothing in life (besides your well-being and a minimum level of care). Again: If you think that there should be a certain character, then make them. You guys have hands and a keyboard, and you can write stories addressing these issues if it really bothers you that much. In fact, gay people themselves will probably do a much better job at writing a gay character than a straight person ever would.Originally Posted by Byronic Man
And you don't get the media that you're entitled to because you're entitled to nothing. It's as if half the things I say fall into some void.
No. It will be when people who care about this issue stop writing thesis papers on tumblr and start writing stories that address these problems.Originally Posted by Byronic Man
Because I'm always looking for a debate and for people to challenge my views. It's good mental exercise.Originally Posted by Byronic Man
Last edited by Revuhlooshun; 01-16-2013 at 02:26 PM.
So why are you here?
I'm here for the ass.
I have a less cynical, less irreconcilable view of culture.No. It will be when people who care about this issue stop writing thesis papers on tumblr and start writing stories that address their problems.
They never see 'em coming.Originally Posted by Tarvu
That said, if you intend to include a group in a story, you're also obligated to handle it well. There are two old sayings that apply here - "Write what you know" and "If you don't know what it is, don't touch it." If you don't know and want to write it, then you have to go educate yourself and talk with people. And really, there's a wealth of information and communities on the interent that would be more than happy to help.
I like to think the people at Obsidian and P Studio reflect that effort. There are no romances in Fallout New Vegas and Persona 4 and Catherine are strictly heterosexual affairs in terms of romance, but the LGBT characters are there being who they are and you have a guy like Arcade Ganon who's so normal he's almost boring. That he's gay is just a detail, its his evasiveness on other topics that gives him some intrigue.
Is it really so crazy to think sexuality and gender presentation could just be a minor detail? That is actually a big deal reveals a cultural problem, not a problem on the part of the person who's just trying to be themselves.
The reason there are people that are super "out" is because there are plenty of people obsessed with enforcing the norm. This on top of people coping with things differently, putting them on edge. Worse is when the ally ends up being the one making your version of normal exotic or a punchline. They're essentially okaying what they do when they say they are an ally.
That's why Bioware needs to do some serious soul-searching on this stuff and websites like Kotaku need to stop making excuses for them. That Mass Effect can handle it so well, but Dragon Age and SWTOR fuck it up so hard is a problem for eight studios calling themselves "Bioware."
Looking back on the last page finally, I see that quite a few people are getting hung up on the 1-3% figure, and that my point did not come across clearly. The figure is to illustrate how inconsequential the LGBT community is to the larger population, not to suggest that LGBT characters are or are not proportionate to the actual population. The point of that figure was to ask, "How can a minority with such low numbers expect there to be adequate or abundant representation for them?" Is every single obscure subculture entitled to some form of fictional representation? Where are all the albinos then? Where are their snarky gifs? Where are their tumblr pages? What about their trials and tribulations? Do you people not give a fuck about albinos?
And before anyone answers these rhetorical questions: You are not entitled to any representation in fiction. Nobody owes you anything. If you want to be represented, then make a stand and make it happen. And no, I'm sure that you care about albinos as people. Again, rhetorical.
There is no realistic way for us to determine if a subgroup is proportionately represented in this medium. These "characters off the top of my head," "100 imaginary developers that play to my biases" methods of guesstimation are not scientific and therefore futile. We would literally have to go through and analyze every single game in the last 30+ years to make an actual determination (which is why one was never made). But again, even doing so is missing the point of why the figure was used. You could be a part of a subgroup that's 90% of the population, but you're still not entitled to representation, although you are more likely to be represented simply due to the odds. It's why it shouldn't be surprising if characters like you are hard to come by if you're hard to come by yourself.
I don't care about albinos. I just like to play games.
What a monster.
Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii'm the rootinest tootinest
I worked with this guy when I was a teenager - check this shit out. Dude was a black albino twin, who was practicing to be an animator at Disney. He was like The Stereotype That Never Was. Holy fuck how magical can a mothafucka be. Oh yeah! He was fat too.
Check your pigment privilege Dig.