LGBT Issues and Vidja Games

[Konnery]

I just think kind of hamfisting characters into a game for the sake of having it be "LGBT" friendly is worse than anything in this. I get that the inclusion is nice for people in these communities but there's absolutely no tact or reason for half of it. ME3 handled it pretty well. Leave it up to the player to figure out the orientation of a character, if that kind of thing even matters. People don't really run around going "I'M STRAIGHT I ABSOLUTELY LOVE TITTIES/DICKS" respectively so why should it be any different for homosexuals. Sexual orientation doesn't define anyone so I don't think it should be so massively fucking important to people in a video game of all places.

[DpadJoe]

I just think kind of hamfisting characters into a game for the sake of having it be "LGBT" friendly is worse than anything in this. I get that the inclusion is nice for people in these communities but there's absolutely no tact or reason for half of it. ME3 handled it pretty well. Leave it up to the player to figure out the orientation of a character, if that kind of thing even matters. People don't really run around going "I'M STRAIGHT I ABSOLUTELY LOVE TITTIES/DICKS" respectively so why should it be any different for homosexuals. Sexual orientation doesn't define anyone so I don't think it should be so massively fucking important to people in a video game of all places.

It's not about hamfisting it in, it doesn't need to be like that it can be done like any other love interest storyline. Also "I get that the inclusion is nice for people in these communities " is very patronising, this is not about randomly shoving gay characters in this is about the fact that out of all the tens of thousands of games released 99% only deal with straight relationships, the fact that people in the game universe may not be straight is ignored the fact that there may be transgender people is ignored, not for one game but for EVERY game.

[Byronic Man]

Also:

"People don't really run around going "I'M STRAIGHT I ABSOLUTELY LOVE TITTIES/DICKS" respectively"

Have you not checked the comments recently?

[Konnery]

It's not about hamfisting it in, it doesn't need to be like that it can be done like any other love interest storyline. Also "I get that the inclusion is nice for people in these communities " is very patronising, this is not about randomly shoving gay characters in this is about the fact that out of all the tens of thousands of games released 99% only deal with straight relationships, the fact that people in the game universe may not be straight is ignored the fact that there may be transgender people is ignored, not for one game but for EVERY game.

Yeah and this whole ordeal of all of the sudden a person's sexuality as a defining characteristic is extremely fucking shallow. I like women, but I don't get lumped into this "straight" characterization so why should developers go out of their way to make an OBVIOUSLY gay character, because let's be honest you have to make it obvious for people to actually notice because *gasp* gay people aren't so different from straight people.

[Revuhlooshun]

Part of this issue comes down to what people want in a story. I know of a few people that cannot get interested in a story if it doesn't have a character that they like and can relate to, while I can't think of a single fictional character that I've ever gotten emotionally attached to. The entire concept of "I need myself to be in the story!" is such a foreign one to me that I cannot wrap my mind around it, though I'm sure that my completely detached approach to a story is just as alien to these people.

Different people want different things.

[DpadJoe]

Yeah and this whole ordeal of all of the sudden a person's sexuality as a defining characteristic is extremely fucking shallow. I like women, but I don't get lumped into this "straight" characterization so why should developers go out of their way to make an OBVIOUSLY gay character, because let's be honest you have to make it obvious for people to actually notice because *gasp* gay people aren't so different from straight people.

Ok I'm going to try to explain this for the umpteenth time, IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE A DEFINING CHARACTERISTIC ergh I'm ok now, it can be done like any other romance for example: why not have Nathan Drake fall for Charlie instead of Elana. Why does Meryl marry Johnny S in MGS why not have her fall for another female guard. Why not have any two of the Gears of War crew fall for each other while in combat. It does not have to be shouted out that is your mind that is suggesting that, it can be done like any of the countless straight storylines in gaming. The issue is the lack of basically any LGBT characters/romances not how they are handled.

[Revuhlooshun]

You ask why can't these relationships be gay. I ask: Why can't they be straight? Most estimates (as difficult as it may be to gather them) put the U.S. LGBT population at or around 3.4% (http://www.gallup.com/poll/158066/sp...tify-lgbt.aspx) while the number hovers around 1.5% in the U.K. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11398629). Heterosexuality is the norm and/or average, so why should homosexual relationships be disproportionately represented in fictional media? Why have them in there just for the sake of having them in there?

And honestly, does it really matter who is fucking who in a story? The only reason to switch these relationships around is to make a political statement--they have no bearing on the content or depth of the story itself.

If you want to advance a political cause and/or an agenda, that's fine. But be honest about it.

[Byronic Man]

You ask why can't these relationships be gay. I ask: Why can't they be straight? Most estimates (as difficult as it may be to gather them) put the U.S. LGBT population at being at or around 3.4% (http://www.gallup.com/poll/158066/sp...tify-lgbt.aspx) while the number ranges at 1% in the U.K. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11398629). Heterosexuality is the norm and/or average, so why should homosexual relationships be disproportionately represented in fictional media?

Good question. How many LGBT protagonists are there in gaming?

And honestly, does it really matter who is fucking who in a story? The only reason to switch these relationships around is to make a political statement--they have no bearing on the content or depth of the story itself.

If you want to advance a political cause and/or an agenda, that's fine. But be honest about it.

Why is it not advancing a political agenda to almost exclusively feature heterosexual characters and relationships but definitely a political agenda when anything else is even suggested?

[Konnery]

You're really seeming to miss how inelegant gaming is for these kinds of things, straight or not. Meryl married Johnny S because, hmm, maybe she's straight? I really don't see where you're trying to go with this because as I said, straight relationships are handled poorly enough and those are written by straight people.

It's gaming, it's going to take some more time where anything story-based ISN'T hamfisted. Why would a developer risk the ire of a community by trying (and sadly failing) to be LGBT friendly. So far all it's gotten is "Man they really suck at this, this is insulting". The fact that they lack these is because, fucking shocking again, homosexuals are the minority. Sure it sucks, but its true, a large part of the development population is probably straight so they tend to lean towards that.

I'm not against the inclusion as long as it's handled decently, IE: Steve from ME3, but every other time I've seen it even attempted you get something like Anders from DA2 or Gay Planet.

So yes the lack of inclusion is exactly relative to how they are handled because when they aren't handled decently it pisses people off.

You ask why can't these relationships be gay. I ask: Why can't they be straight? Most estimates (as difficult as it may be to gather them) put the U.S. LGBT population at or around 3.4% (http://www.gallup.com/poll/158066/sp...tify-lgbt.aspx) while the number hovers around 1.5% in the U.K. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11398629). Heterosexuality is the norm and/or average, so why should homosexual relationships be disproportionately represented in fictional media? Why have them in there just for the sake of having them in there?

And honestly, does it really matter who is fucking who in a story? The only reason to switch these relationships around is to make a political statement--they have no bearing on the content or depth of the story itself.

If you want to advance a political cause and/or an agenda, that's fine. But be honest about it.

Lots of this

[DpadJoe]

You ask why can't these relationships be gay. I ask: Why can't they be straight? Most estimates (as difficult as it may be to gather them) put the U.S. LGBT population at being at or around 3.4% (http://www.gallup.com/poll/158066/sp...tify-lgbt.aspx) while the number ranges at 1% in the U.K. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11398629). Heterosexuality is the norm and/or average, so why should homosexual relationships be disproportionately represented in fictional media?

And honestly, does it really matter who is fucking who in a story? The only reason to switch these relationships around is to make a political statement--they have no bearing on the content or depth of the story itself.

If you want to advance a cause and/or an agenda, that's fine. But be honest about it.

So you want to exclude LGBT characters from games because there not in the "majority"



oh and how can something be disproportionately represented in the media when it is not represented, by your own figures for every 100 games that come out 3-4 should contain a LGBT character or storyline which does not happen.

Oh and by the those numbers are really unreliable as you have no idea the amount of people who answered who could be in the closet.

Oh and don't give me that agenda bullshit, the arguement to feature almost exclusively feature heterosexual characters and relationships is much more representative of certain political agendas.

[Revuhlooshun]

Good question. How many LGBT protagonists are there in gaming?

Definitely a lot more than there used to be, but apparently not enough for people looking to fill a quota.

Why is it not advancing a political agenda to almost exclusively feature heterosexual characters and relationships but definitely a political agenda when anything else is even suggested?

I never said that it wasn't advancing a political agenda to almost exclusively feature heterosexual characters.

So you want to exclude LGBT characters from because there not in the "majority"

Yeup. That's definitely what I said. "GET RID OF THE GAY PEOPLE, THERE'S TOO MANY."

oh and how can something be disproportionately represented in the media when it is not represented, by your own figures for every 100 games that come out 3-4 should contain a LGBT character or storyline which does not happen.

You're the one complaining that there's not many gay characters in fiction. I'm pointing out that there's not many gay people to begin with. I don't find it surprising to not encounter many gay people in games for the same reason I didn't find it surprising to not encounter many white people in Resident Evil 5.

[Konnery]

Story: Generic adventure guy on a mission to save the planet before evil guy uses dastardly artifact to brainwash the population and turn them into his mindslaves.

Generic adventure guy being straight or gay ultimately has no bearing on this story.

[Sir Legendhead]

GET RID OF THE GAY PEOPLE, THERE'S TOO MANY.

HITLER!

Sorry man, I just wanted to do dat Godwin thang. It was bound to happen sooner or later. Carry on.

[Byronic Man]

Definitely a lot more than there used to be, but apparently not enough to satisfy some people.

Can you think of any?

I'd wager there are little to none. Definitely not enough to be deemed proportionate, so why should homosexual relationships be disproportionately represented in fictional media?

I never said that it wasn't advancing a political agenda to almost exclusively feature heterosexual characters.

Are you not outraged at the status quo, so?

[Revuhlooshun]

Can you think of any?

I'd wager there are little to none. Definitely not enough to be deemed proportionate, so why should homosexual relationships be disproportionately represented in fictional media?

Off the top of my head? No. But why must it be limited to protagonists? Why can't they be antagonists? Only straight people can be antagonists or something? And why can't they be supporting characters either?

The crux of that statement is to combat the notion that somehow a 1-3% minority is entitled to an abundance of representative fictional characters by default. If every 1-3% minority is entitled to fictional representation, then we're going to have quite a large credit roll on our hands.

Are you not outraged at the status quo, so?

They're fictional stories. Like I said before: I don't get that attached to fiction, so I can't say that it does.

[Konnery]

Antagonists are always straight Russians. It's a rule.

[Revuhlooshun]

An addendum for clarity: Should there be gay characters? Of course. But you don't see me getting upset when I can't find any stories with atheists in them. Where's my representation? There are probably less atheists in modern fiction than there are homosexuals (which goes back to my point of diversity coming from thought), and atheists are damn near 20% of the U.S. population.

Does it bother me that I have no heroes who openly espouse and put forth a well reasoned argument for atheism, or even support characters who openly challenge the philosophy of faith? No, because my identity is my own and I don't need other people to accept or respect it.

[Konnery]

An addendum for clarity: Should there be gay characters? Of course. But you don't see me getting upset when I can't find any stories with atheists in them. Where's my representation? There are probably less atheists in modern fiction than there are homosexuals (which goes back to my point of diversity coming from thought), and atheists are damn near 20% of the U.S. population.

Does it bother me that I literally have no heroes who openly espouse and put forth a well reasoned argument for atheism, or even support characters who openly challenge the philosophy of faith? No, because my identity is my own and I don't need other people to accept or respect it.

We seem to think a lot alike on this kind of thing, though oddly despite my atheism, I have an almost fanatical enjoyment of being this "right hand of God" character in games. That whole "I have a higher calling to kick your ass" is kind of cool.

[Revuhlooshun]

Religious characters are some of my favorites. I especially loved The Burned Man in New Vegas.

I respect religion. I just don't buy into the metaphysics.

[Trev]

We seem to think a lot alike on this kind of thing, though oddly despite my atheism, I have an almost fanatical enjoyment of being this "right hand of God" character in games. That whole "I have a higher calling to kick your ass" is kind of cool.

I've got a Dark Souls character in the Darkmoons for exactly this reason.