Politics thread

[Revuhlooshun]

And that prominent figure is now sitting at home in his underwear, though only because of a handful of percentage points--he could have easily ended up in office next week. In fact, I'm almost convinced that if there had been no hurricane a week before the election, he would have won. That is how easily the people can be swayed at any given moment.

[usedtabe]

http://www.salon.com/2013/01/16/lati...rror_campaign/

Bloo, how could you cut me out of this action man?

[Revuhlooshun]

"I'm going to a NARP" = "I'm going to prison"

No Ass Rape Pleasantries.

[Sir Legendhead]

And that prominent figure is now sitting at home in his underwear, though only because of a handful of percentage points--he could have easily ended up in office next week. In fact, I'm almost convinced that if there had been no hurricane a week before the election, he would have won. That is how easily the people can be swayed at any given moment.

Obama did the hurricanes. IMPEACH OBAMA NOW.

[BulletMagnet]

That is how easily the people can be swayed at any given moment.

If people were actually made plainly aware of how god-awful most of his policy proposals were then we wouldn't even be having this discussion (and that goes double for the Bush years), but once again a small enclave of self-interested people were willing to shell out a lot of money and manpower to obfuscate as many relevant facts as possible (including the very fact that their money was being spent as it was) and render things as close as they were (which also goes double for the Bush years). Can the populace at large be completely exonerated here? Of course not, but no matter how you slice it it's not even close to a fair fight when wealth has vastly more pull than truth in how the nation is run, both in government and otherwise.

[Revuhlooshun]

The information is widely available. It's out there if you want to look for it, as you and I know. But that takes effort. Who has the time to learn that stuff when Dancing With The Stars is on?

They can find these things out if they want to; the problem is that many of them don't.

[digtastik]

The information is widely available. It's out there if you want to look for it, as you and I know. But that takes effort. Who has the time to learn that stuff when Dancing With The Stars is on?

They can find these things out if they want to--the problem is that many of them don't.

This.

[BulletMagnet]

They can find these things out if they want to; the problem is that many of them don't.

Once again, in some cases this is certainly true, but I find it hard to believe that there isn't a significant portion of people out there who sincerely want to be better-informed about the factors having an effect on their lives but exist under far less accommodating circumstances than you or I to overcome the forces openly stacked against them (who, shamelessly enough, tend to be the ones who heap praise on "ordinary, hardworking folks" with one side of their mouths and insist that anyone who's not making millions must be a lazy parasite worthy of only scorn with the other). I couldn't tell you what the proportion of willfully ignorant versus unwillingly deprived might be, if such a thing could ever be done, but I'd submit that it's a large enough percentage to be worth better than "they're all a bunch of idiots who deserve to be ignored."

[digtastik]

If it ain't on tayvay it ain't rail.

Add to that the new gen of fucktards who get their facts from Facebook.

[Revuhlooshun]

Once again, in some cases this is certainly true, but I find it hard to believe that there isn't a significant portion of people out there who sincerely want to be better-informed about the factors having an effect on their lives but exist under far less accommodating circumstances than you or I to overcome the forces openly stacked against them (who, shamelessly enough, tend to be the ones who heap praise on "ordinary, hardworking folks" with one side of their mouths and insist that anyone who's not making millions must be a lazy parasite worthy of only scorn with the other). I couldn't tell you what the proportion of willfully ignorant versus unwillingly deprived might be, if such a thing could ever be done, but I'd submit that it's a large enough percentage to be worth better than "they're all a bunch of idiots who deserve to be ignored."

They have access to the same information that you and I have. There is no one who is "unwillingly deprived" of information in this day and age. We have more knowledge and information available to us today than at any point in human history, and it can be accessed at any time by even the smallest of devices in our pockets. Our phones can be used as mobile encyclopedias if we desire, but instead they are more often used as yet another electronic distraction. If you truly crave information these days, you can obtain it quicker than you can get a pizza delivered to your house.

People have no excuse to not to be informed on the issues, other than that they just don't care about them (which is fine--just leave the decision making to those who do).

[digtastik]

They have access to the same information that you and I have. There is no one who is "unwillingly deprived" of information in this day and age. We have more knowledge and information available to us than at any point in human history, and it can be accessed at any time by even the smallest of devices in our pockets. Our phones can be used as a mobile encyclopedia, but instead they are more often used as yet another electronic distraction. If you truly crave information these days, you can obtain it quicker than you can get a pizza delivered to your house.

You have no excuse to not to be informed on the issues.

This is true. I'm in the business of cable tv and I can tell you that no matter how poor people are, they will find a way to have tv in the home. Sadly, beyond tv, beer, smokes, etc these guys are *not*looking to be more informed.

[Revuhlooshun]

And you know what? Even if you're poor, there are still many avenues to obtain information if you want it. I grew up dirt fucking poor. Most the shit that I know today, I taught myself. I'd read history text books beyond the sections that we were being taught in school, I'd go to the library for books that I was interested in, and I'd spend my free time learning about stuff on the internet. Hell, even when we couldn't afford internet access, I'd use the computers at school or at the library. If you truly want information, we are being drowned in it every day. There really is no excuse not to find it, other than that you're not interested in looking for it, which is, again, fine--just leave the decision-making to those that are interested and have taken the time to form an educated opinion.

[digtastik]

It's a vicious cycle for some people though. Not everyone is motivated to rise above their current shitty circumstances.

[usedtabe]

I'm with Rev 100% on there being no reason to be overwhelmingly ignorant. We literally have anything at our fingertips. The Internet turned me into my own history professor when I first got access. Read everything and to this day still try to read about things I don't know about. Not having a thirst for knowledge is so foreign to me and I feel it should be for everyone in this age of information. If you're not turned on at learning and instead getting fed processed information and not seeking out more you have only yourself to blame and everyone else is right in pointing their fingers at you.

Time is an issue I understand but it's no excuse for ignorance.

[Revuhlooshun]

A really great piece by conservative commentator Charles Krauthammer on the strategic vs philosophical divide in the Republican Party:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...ecd_story.html

There's the usual political red meat in there for his intended audience, but there's substance in there as well.

Also, reading this to "Down In It" by Nine Inch Nails was something else.

[digtastik]

I'm with Rev 100% on there being no reason to be overwhelmingly ignorant. We literally have anything at our fingertips. The Internet turned me into my own history professor when I first got access. Read everything and to this day still try to read about things I don't know about. Not having a thirst for knowledge is so foreign to me and I feel it should be for everyone in this age of information. If you're not turned on at learning and instead getting fed processed information and not seeking out more you have only yourself to blame and everyone else is right in pointing their fingers at you.

Time is an issue I understand but it's no excuse for ignorance.

Yep. Laziness. There is no good excuse.

[BulletMagnet]

I seem to be in a decided minority on this issue and as such don't want to beat my chest on it too much, but I will go a bit further on one point:

If you truly crave information these days, you can obtain it quicker than you can get a pizza delivered to your house.

Sure, you can pull up ten different guys talking/writing/etc. about a particular issue without much trouble...problem is, all ten of them are saying different, often contradictory things, and the sources for all this information, 99 percent of the time, have made no effort to parse the content on offer, phrase it in a way that most readers can understand, or even perform basic checks into its veracity, though this is ostensibly what they're being paid for (at least if you still view the media as the "fourth estate" as opposed to a purely entertainment-oriented enterprise). Information, as you rightly say, is everywhere, but actually getting anything worthwhile out of it all takes much more time and effort than it ought to; maybe I'll be criticized for saying so, but I don't think that basic factual information is something you should have to dig very deep to get ahold of in any semblance of civilized society.

Those in positions to make a difference too often take a devil-may-care attitude when it comes to how much white noise is drowning out the things that everyone ought to know; sure, we could shine a lot of light on these topics and almost instantly dispel a lot of errant "facts" and put a lot of professional liars out of business, but that'd mean actually getting one's hands dirty, and there are careers to progress! All we peasants get is a cordial "so controversial! Thanks so much for sitting down with me today" as we're openly lied to over and over with nary a peep of protest from those who claim to know better. I dunno, am I wrong to demand more from those trafficking in all this information, or is the Darwinian avenue the best way to run a discourse?

[Sir Legendhead]

...is the Darwinian avenue the best way to run a discourse?

I believe so, yes. In the sense that it's best to allow water to find its own level. Please excuse the brevity of my response, by the way. It's just that we're on a gaming site, obviously, and I like to speak right down to earth in a language that everybody here can easily understand.

[Revuhlooshun]

Sure, you can pull up ten different guys talking/writing/etc. about a particular issue without much trouble...problem is, all ten of them are saying different, often contradictory things, and the sources for all this information, 99 percent of the time, have made no effort to parse the content on offer, phrase it in a way that most readers can understand, or even perform basic checks into its veracity, though this is ostensibly what they're being paid for (at least if you still view the media as the "fourth estate" as opposed to a purely entertainment-oriented enterprise). Information, as you rightly say, is everywhere, but actually getting anything worthwhile out of it all takes much more time and effort than it ought to; maybe I'll be criticized for saying so, but I don't think that basic factual information is something you should have to dig very deep to get ahold of in any semblance of civilized society.

Yet everyone here finds ways to sift out the noise. If people want to be ignorant, then that's their choice--but they can't blame anyone but themselves for their ignorance. Either people can feel like they're victims and take pity on themselves because different people have different points of view of what the truth is, or they can put their big boy pants on, wipe away the tears, and start doing the work necessary to learning what's what.

You do it, I do it, everyone here does it. Instead of finding someone to blame, we should be encouraging people to take some responsibility if they care about not being ignorant.

[Revuhlooshun]

"Oops, no bullets."