Let's have an argument about religion!

[PhilKenSebben]

I assure you I don't suck....in the lame sense.

Sorry, shouldn't of blanket statemented that one. I know that are awesome, amazing folks who follow. I should of said something else, such over-zealous Catholics or religious nuts. Religion can be a beautiful thing if not taken to an insane level, that locks a little boy in closets for hours upon hours and beats him for not memorizing the old testament perfectly. Or you know, the whole murdering non-believers and all that. #CrazyCatholicsHurtedMe

Wait, this isn't Twitter.... shit.

[Steven Hansen]

I was raised Catholic, as my family immigrated here from Italy. Didn't have too horrible an experience, though, despite being forced to go to catechism weekly until I got confirmed (like age 6 through 14?). Since then, the only time I've been in a church has been for funerals.

My family came from the poor, rural parts of Italy and obviously had a challenging enough time when they got here so it wasn't zealot religiousness so much as traditional/pragmatic/ritualistic religiousness. In her own adult life here, my mother rarely went to (or currently goes to) church (Xmas, Easter, and other sporadic occasions), but she made damn sure I got to catechism weekly, lest my soul be unsafe, or something.

Incidentally, three very cool reads loosely around the topic of religion I stumbled upon last week:

Has Fiction Lost Its Faith?

Study Finds One in 6 Follows No Religion

One Nation Under God?

[Vahnati]

"Religion can be a beautiful thing if not taken to an insane level..."

Too bad it always does, sooner or later. That's what happens when people are insecure in their Gods, and unfortunately most people are. You never see Hindu's, Buddhists, Taoists, etc. waging "holy wars" because they aren't petty little kids competing over "Nuh-uh, MY God's better!" because they don't fucking care. These new little kid religions are like those fucking 6 year old brats at the Christmas party, everyone wants to cave their heads in with a sledge but you can't because they just don't know any better. Who's going to teach them, Dad?

(I give full credit to whoever see's what I did there, and half credit to everyone else for trying)

[PhilKenSebben]

I was raised Catholic, as my family immigrated here from Italy. Didn't have too horrible an experience, though, despite being forced to go to catechism weekly until I got confirmed (like age 6 through 14?). Since then, the only time I've been in a church has been for funerals.

My family came from the poor, rural parts of Italy and obviously had a challenging enough time when they got here so it wasn't zealot religiousness so much as traditional/pragmatic/ritualistic religiousness. In her own adult life here, my mother rarely went to (or currently goes to) church (Xmas, Easter, and other sporadic occasions), but she made damn sure I got to catechism weekly, lest my soul be unsafe, or something.

Incidentally, three very cool reads loosely around the topic of religion I stumbled upon last week:

Has Fiction Lost Its Faith?


Study Finds One in 6 Follows No Religion


One Nation Under God?

I'll be sure to check those out. But yeah, I did have a horrible experience. I was that little boy. then when I was older and living with a new family that was christian, I ran into some the meanest most back stabbing two-faced people I have ever seen. Now I have met some great people also, but my experiences run far more negative than positive. Maybe it's just the huge amount of fuck wad scum floating around these days, or that society is constantly figuring out more and more ways to keep people apart and apathetic towards one another, while keeping us feeling connected at the same time through electronics and shit.

[Revuhlooshun]

You never see Hindu's, Buddhists, Taoists, etc. waging "holy wars"

http://www.screamsfromchildhood.com/..._hitchens.html

Things went from bad to worse once Japanese generals had mobilized their Zen-obedient zombies into complete obedience. The mainland of China became a killing field, and all the major sects of Japanese Buddhism united to issue the following proclamation:

"Revering the imperial policy of preserving the Orient, the subjects of imperial Japan bear the humanitarian destiny of one billion people of color. . . . We believe it is time to effect a major change in the course of human history, which has been centered on Caucasians."

...Japanese Buddhists of the time regarded their country's membership of the Nazi/Fascist Axis as a manifestation of liberation theology. Or, as the united Buddhist leadership phrased it at the time:

"In order to establish eternal peace in East Asia, arousing the great benevolence and compassion of Buddhism, we are sometimes accepting and sometimes forceful. We now have no choice but to exercise the benevolent forcefulness of 'killing one in order that many may live' (issatsu tasho). This is something which Mahayana Buddhism approves of only with the greatest seriousness."

No "holy war" or "Crusade" advocate could have put it better. The "eternal peace" bit is particularly excellent. By the end of the dreadful conflict that Japan had started, it was Buddhist and Shinto priests who were recruiting and training the suicide bombers, or Kamikaze ("Divine Wind"), fanatics, assuring them the emperor was a "Golden Wheel-Turning Sacred King," one of the four manifestations of the ideal Buddhist monarch and a Tathagata, or "fully enlightened being," of the material world. And since "Zen treats life and death indifferently," why not abandon the cares of this world and adopt a policy of prostration at the feet of a homicidal dictator?

[Vahnati]

I'm not really interested in what Imperial Japan did to motivate their soldiers to conquer half of Asia in a matter of years, that's entirely beside my point and you know it, or at least would, if you understood what I was saying.

First and foremost, a "holy war" as far as I'm concerned is an entirely religious affair, one group killing another over a difference in belief/worship of particular deity. That Japan used religious zealotry to spur on their soldiers is hardly what one would call a holy war, nothing about WWII in Asia had anything to do with who's God was better, Japan was conquering territory for resources as they were woefully deprived of any domestic ones. The reason Pearl Harbor ever happened in the first place was a direct result of the oil embargo against them, a sign of their resource deficiency. To make any insinuation that it was a holy war is laughable at best.

That bullshit about issatsu tasho is taken completely out of context. "The Buddhist concept of lethal self-defense is subtly non-linear and based on the criterion of prevention of greater suffering." Taking a life to a Buddhist is something done ONLY if it would be to prevent the suffering of many, like if someone had killed Hitler. Just because the Emperor of Japan ordered his soldiers to kill and used this as an excuse, doesn't mean for a second it has anything to do with actual Buddhist philosophy.

Literally everything you just quoted has more to do with Imperial Japan and the unfathomable devotion and loyalty their soldiers have to their leader than any "Buddhist Holy War." That notion in and of itself is nothing short of absolutely ludicrous nonsense. Anything to make yourself look like a golden calf though, I suppose, eh Rev? I'm positive you'll have some other bullshit to pull out of the internet here, so go ahead, I'll wait. You shouldn't have to put any more than a G in the address bar.

[Mighty Hatman]

I'm not disagreeing with either side but you got me interested in what you would describe as a "holy war". I think even the most religious of wars would have land as a motive too. I guess I find it hard to believe that the crusades were done for nothing other than religious purposes.

[Revuhlooshun]

[Insert Rage Here]

I'm not sure why you're so salty. If anything, I was backing up your earlier assertion that all religion goes to an insane level. You clearly didn't bother to read any of it though--the excerpt was talking not only about Buddhist sects giving moral justification for the Japanese war effort, but also gathering assets for the cause and participating in it under their violent interpretation of Buddhist teachings and precepts. The excerpt from Hitchens' "god Is Not Great"--a book on religion, not Japanese military history, I might add--focuses exclusively on the activities of Buddhist religious institutions, not the army, meaning that your idea of what the material said does not resemble what the material said. Even a cursory glance at Imperial Way Buddhism will demonstrate that it was a voluntary effort justified under religious principles as a war against nonbelievers, and that the open slaughter of such individuals was instrumental to attaining their goals.

Again, their words, not mine:

"Imperial-Way Buddhism utilizes the exquisite truth of the Lotus Sutra to reveal the majestic essence of the national polity. Exalting the true spirit of Mahayana Buddhism is a teaching which reverently supports the emperor's work. This is what the great founder of our sect, Saint Nichiren, meant when he referred to the divine unity of sovereign and Buddha...For this reason the principal image of adoration in Imperial-Way Buddhism is not Buddha Shakyamuni who appeared in India, but his majesty the emperor, whose lineage extends over thousands of generations."

Or you can continue to deny that Japanese Buddhists were out for blood during WWII. So which assertion were you wrong about: That all religion inevitably goes insane (except for Buddhists in your view, meaning that you've contradicted yourself), or that Buddhists would never be willing to wage a holy war (despite the fact that an entire nation of them was willing to)? The choice is yours.

You shouldn't have to put any more than a G in the address bar.

Oh, burn. You got me there. I actually cite and source and prove what I say with materials from experts, as opposed to just pulling shit out of my ass. I am forever shook.

Also, I didn't have to go to Google for that tidbit originally. I own the book. Some of us actually read in our spare time--we don't rely on Prison Planet for our historical anecdotes.

But what does it matter? Go and zerg out some more. That's definitely a mature and intelligent way to address different points of view.

EDIT:

I'm not disagreeing with either side but you got me interested in what you would describe as a "holy war". I think even the most religious of wars would have land as a motive too. I guess I find it hard to believe that the crusades were done for nothing other than religious purposes.

Territorial expansion was an integral aspect of the Crusades for both sides. Not to say that people didn't believe the religious justifications, but there were significant imperial aspects to the affair. The entire reason that the Crusades began was because Muslim empires--primarily the Turks--were attacking and colonizing Christian territory.

All wars, even holy wars, boil down to acquiring territory and resources first and foremost. The Crusades were about European expansion as much as WWII was about Japanese expansion to the Japanese.

[Revuhlooshun]

Also, not even Hindus are immune to violent extremism:

http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/...-hinduism.html

Every religion has the capacity for insanity and violence. They also have the capacity for kindness and virtue. Religion is not inherently good or bad--those human characteristics lie only in the heart of its followers. Those with evil in their hearts will use any convenient excuse to justify their actions.

[PhilKenSebben]

Also, not even Hindus are immune to violent extremism:

http://www.daylightatheism.org/2009/...-hinduism.html

All religion has the capacity for insanity and violence. They also have the capacity for kindness and virtue. Religion is not inherently good or bad--those human characteristics lie only in the heart of its followers. Those with evil in their hearts with use any convenient excuse to justify their actions.

Well said.

[Panzadolphin56]

^ What he said about what the other guy said.

[Revuhlooshun]

There are two typos in the quoted section, so I'd have to go with "OK said," but thanks guys.

[GlowBear]

Disclaimer:
I'm not here to argue anything cos it never goes well, plus some people here (and everwhere obviously) can't really have an non moronic adult conversation about this topic. So bear in mind I am Catholic and Creationist, this most people know and I've no interest in arguments about how stupid/wrong blah I am. Take it to someone who has fantastical fucks to spare. This is just about what faith is to me in regards to something Shane said

Shane:

For a lot of people Shane, their faith is true and gets them through a lot, but it's not something that involves, sprinkles, hymns and pretty comforting pictures. It can be something that is emotional and in extreme cases physically draining. It is also quite a lonely path. I believe in God, the Catholic faith and will always; to me it's the truth. But it's not an easy ride and I'm not talking about in terms of conflicts between what's (deemed by others) real or not. One of the worst nights of my life happened this year (one of many but this more so) and it involved me fighting to keep my faith, in the one time it ever faltered. I felt a physical tug in my chest and if whatever it was were to leave me, I'd have a pit there, one that might lead me to give up.

Lots of people simply throw their nose up at such notions, lots of people who are young especially, but that doesn't change what faith is to someone, so their opinions don't matter. It'd be nice if support of the person without accepting the same belief was more important to people or 'friends'. Thankfully for the most part I have friends that don't believe and yet are not childish and moronic in their expression of that. They also know it's important to me and vice versa me, to what's cherished by them.

To many people of faith, myself included, you can't always explain in simple English what faith is, because it isn't an esoteric trait. I also have no desire to, not in a lengthy manner, as it is a personal thing, so everyone is different.

To me it is part of me, has been and will be. God is there, he hears all our prayers and yet when we go through the toughest trials of life, doing what we think can help us in terms of asking God ect and we still get no instant gratifying clear sign, yet still are unwavered, even if our mind and souls have been battered, there's solace in knowing that whatever goes on you haven't lost God and that might not be enough for people, sometimes it isn't for me, but it's a powerful feeling. I have had things happen in my life, simple little things, that showed to me God was there, in that moment. G od is real, the devil is real. God is good, the devil is evil. That's my belief.There's so much more that could be said, but this is just a light insight from me and one that doesn't require a psychological, formulaic recital to justify its intensity and realism.

[Pixielated]

:: cautiously approaches thread ::

:: pokes it with a stick ::

Wow... this is a surprisingly polite thread on religion or at least it got there recently!

I express an opinion on the stuff in an LGBTQ forum and they lock that stuff up on a second even when what's said isn't bad. I guess you could say i have my reasons to resent religious fundamentalists, but I learned early on there's a difference between faith and religion. Religion is a cornerstone of any culture and also where we learned to govern, found inspiration for the arts and the scientific process, math and such so it can be a good thing. Its when it becomes political or passages selectively adhered to that things often go horribly wrong.

Of course there's always people wordsmithing, repurposing and reinterpreting the Bible, but based on the Jesus I've read about I have a hard time believing he''d promise salvation to all but homosexuals. And all those in a tizzy about the Biblical definition of marriage should consider this - why did you let marriage become a state and federal institution if you wanted to keep a Biblical definition?

You know, then make DOMA to "defend" exclusive tax breaks for heterosexual couples. That's cute.

This is largely why I don't go to church anymore - I just can't stand all the fakery and shows people put on. I respect people of faith, the people that actually go out and help others, show compassion and love for their fellow humans. Those that just want to thump people with the Bible, have prayer meetings in church and be an ass to the rest of the world can go take a flying leap.

[PhilKenSebben]

This is largely why I don't go to church anymore - I just can't stand all the fakery and shows people put on. I respect people of faith, the people that actually go out and help others, show compassion and love for their fellow humans. Those that just want to thump people with the Bible, have prayer meetings in church and be an ass to the rest of the world can go take a flying leap.

Now, that is well said. Also to what GlowBear said about faith, it is a beautiful thing that can't be put into words. My problem is I just can't let go the bastards and scum that feed on that faith and innocence in people. My last few experiences at a church were filled that kind of filth. Not to mention how I see it at work (psych hospital/group home) and around where I had lived. Seeing that stuff burns me inside and there is only so much you can legally do, to fight it.

[digtastik]

I'm down.

[SchildConstruct]

Those that just want to thump people with the Bible, have prayer meetings in church and be an ass to the rest of the world can go take a flying leap.

"Holier than thou" is the most toxic aspect of faith, especially Big-F Faith, I've ever encountered. Not only does it lead to being able to justify anything, but for self-proclaimed Christians it's completely opposite of what we are supposed to be: Humble. Leading by example.

All the preaching and converting and whatnot is pointless if you aren't good folk. *That* is what "being Christian" means. That is true for Opus Dei, the Society of St Pius X (*especially* for those fucks), and fundamentalist Southern Baptists.

Those folk make me ashamed of being a Christian.

[PappaDukes]

There is only one true religion. The one I just created, where you drink coffee and beer at the same goddamn time.

[Mighty Hatman]

What about coffee liqueur and vodka?

[PappaDukes]

Sure, why the hell not?